third party billers and trust

the first third party biller we ever ran across was DMR. we were promoting sites that used them, and when DMR stopped paying everyone, we all lost money. that was before 2000, and it was the first time most of us had seen a credit card processor go under. it wasn’t the last.

ibill was then the stud. they paid everyone on time, which is the important thing, and they paid your affiliates for you. they were huge, but years later when their payments became spotty, their stats were already old and creaky. they finally went under owing millions, some of which was to be paid back over time but only if various agreements were reached.

we also used 4 other billers who went under. one gave us fair warning when things went wrong (i think they were called pswbilling), another we had already stopped using because they seemed so crappy - and i believe eventually they paid their debts, but it took years. another one i wasn’t involved with and the last one kept pressuring us to send traffic till a week before they went under, and that week they stopped answering their phones.

it’s worth visiting history here to let people know how important the right processor can be. once and only once epoch paid late, ccbill has been on time for years and verotel is another on time payer. others are comparatively new, not working with visa association rules - if they get caught, visa will stop paying them - or out of business. some companies use workarounds, but every company i’ve seen try this went under.

a company that pays on time for one year is nice, but all the companies i saw go under paid on time for a year or more. and this, folks, is why ccbill, epoch and verotel are the only processors i trust with my money!

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I understand what your saying in this thread, but its worth remembering that IBill were once the king of 3rd party billing. A massive company processing for many of the very top sites. When Im ready to start on my own, I will spread the risk amongst a few billers.

CCBill are the kings of billing now. But if Visa pulled the plug, theyd be gone. Same for Epoch and Verotel.

Not saying thats likely, but this is a high risk game and we all need to know that and minimise our risks.

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ibill was visibly not investing into their company for over a year before they fell. their stats were the same they had been before 2000, things often didn’t work, there were lots of issues. ccbill and epoch are very careful to follow visa rules, and that’s a very good thing. also no matter how much things could be improved, ccbill and visa are always adding and changing things - they’re involved in their company and keeping up. ibill never did that.

i’m not sure how verotel does it. they’re a non u.s. company offering visa processing to everyone including u.s. businesses even though visa doesn’t allow cross border processing. on the other hand, visa u.s. is a LOT faster to deal with stuff like that than visa EU.

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It’s shocking seeing the sites Segpay processes for, the ones no other processors will touch, as well as the tube sites and file sharing sites, and thinking they have a sound future with Visa and MasterCard.

I agree with Basschick regarding the current reputable processors and learning from our past. Hopefully the knowledge that we pass on and post on here will save newbies from being ripped off like we have in the past.

It’s unfortunate we have to waste out time countering people trying to steer people down the wrong path but it’s worth it if it saves some good newbies from being ripped off.

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Everything Ive posted on this matter is my honestly held view. I trust Too Much Media and their service looks pretty attractive to me.

I am not, nor have I ever, tried to steer people down the wrong path.

I give my view, others give theirs. Newbs decide what, if any of it, they wish to adopt.

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Why are you trying to change the subject? Neither Patti nor I have mentioned Too Much Media.

These tactics of taking the side of shady companies, websites, people and billers, then changing the subject, is quite annoying and a waste of everyones time.

We disagree on what honesty is.

When Patti creates a thoughtful thread outlining the history of crooked processors that have taken hundreds of thousands from webmasters, if not more, including their trust, and then you say “I understand what your saying in this thread, but” then go on to defend the crooks… that’s steering people in the wrong direction.

When you say CCBill, Verotel and Epoch are in the same boat as IBill, you are steering people in the wrong direction and spreading misinformation. IBills problems had nothing to do with Visa and everything to do with business mismanagement.

You can defend Ibill and Segpay all you like but it wont change all the dodgy sites Segpay processes for, nor the tube sites and file sharing sites they process for, all of which hurt our industry… those of us who make an honest living at least. It also wont put all the money Ibill took from us back in our pockets!

I’ve said eveything I have to say in this thread. Continue with your excuses and misinformation here, I’ve said my peace.

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Doesn’t Too Much Media own Segpay?

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i think marcjacob just wasn’t around ibill enough to see the obvious differences between ccbill and epoch now and ibill at the top of their game. and while it’s true that visa could pull the plug on literally any biller, the current billers are really trying to be compliant with all visa regs and are working closely with visa to keep it that way.

does TMM own segpay? maybe - when did they buy them? and while NATS is a great program, their having bought segpay would mean to me it’s time to reset the counter in my head and give them at least 2 years processing - and paying - experience before i have an opinion. it would also be nice to know more about how they work with visa.

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Marcjacob is saying that Too Much Media is someone a lot of people trust, which is very true. How many paysites doesnt use NATS now? huge amount! So if they are trusted in such an extent then maybe Segpay is an option because of who owns a part of it now, ie Too Much Media.

He isnt justifying any shady tactics, sites or people. You’re reading too much into it.

[quote=Squirt;31438]Why are you trying to change the subject? Neither Patti nor I have mentioned Too Much Media.

These tactics of taking the side of shady companies, websites, people and billers, then changing the subject, is quite annoying and a waste of everyones time.

We disagree on what honesty is.

When Patti creates a thoughtful thread outlining the history of crooked processors that have taken hundreds of thousands from webmasters, if not more, including their trust, and then you say “I understand what your saying in this thread, but” then go on to defend the crooks… that’s steering people in the wrong direction.

When you say CCBill, Verotel and Epoch are in the same boat as IBill, you are steering people in the wrong direction and spreading misinformation. IBills problems had nothing to do with Visa and everything to do with business mismanagement.

You can defend Ibill and Segpay all you like but it wont change all the dodgy sites Segpay processes for, nor the tube sites and file sharing sites they process for, all of which hurt our industry… those of us who make an honest living at least. It also wont put all the money Ibill took from us back in our pockets!

I’ve said eveything I have to say in this thread. Continue with your excuses and misinformation here, I’ve said my peace.[/quote]

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I recall seeing something about it on a different forum, when there was that big hullaboo about the leak in the admin or something feature of NATS. Just can’t recall which forum, could have been GMS or GWW.

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it wasn’t on just one forum - it was on many and the mainstream news. in fact, some of us still may be impacted by this at some time. entire databases containing affiliate info were being stolen through NATS - and sometimes checked on a regular basis. as i recall, it turned out that the NATS admin login was stolen. NATS recommended that webmasters either give access to their NATS to either only their own IPs or else removed the NATS admin login or both. they may have recommended this as soon as their install was done, but i can’t remember for sure.

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Thankyou.

Nope. Its just another attack from my old friend.

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TMM purchased Segpay last spring, I think, or maybe even before that.

TMM has NEVER been transparent about anything. They have a long history of threatening and suing anyone who says anything bad about them, and there was an incredible security breach in almost every installation of NATS which was out there, which TMM knew about, but didn’t tell anyone about, and when a large ISP discovered that a handful of his customers who used NATS all had the same security problem, and tried to warn people, TMM threatened to sue them into oblivion.

As a result, almost a year went by before program owners became aware that various proprietary information, including the email addresses of all site members and potentially some information about affiliates, had been compromised. And this only because somebody was brave enough to expose the information above TMM’s objections and threats.

And this is not the only issue with TMM and NATS. But it is the only one that people will publicly talk about for fear of being sued.

So I would hardly call TMM either “trustworthy” or transparent.

Does any of this apply to Segpay? Who knows. But it’s the same people at the top of both, so draw your own conclusions.

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to stay on ball… yes TMM has some kind of ownership of segpay either in full or part of it
http://www.xbiz.com/news/news_piece.php?id=87656&mi=all&q=tmm

i remember being burned by dialers back in the day but have really been lucky on billers so far and right now i have all my eggs in the CCbill basket, so feel very secure about that…

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Yet Chip, you dont feel strongly enough to cancel your Nats installation.

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Don’t make that assumption. Dropping NATS is not as simple as you might think. We’ve been considering other options for some time, but we don’t want to make the shift until we are confident that whatever choice we make is one we can stick with for a very long time AND that we can ensure the transition will be as close to transparent for our affiliates as we can.