I’ve got a model who wants me to shoot him. He’s from the UK, in his 30s and clearly of age, but won’t have a US government issued ID. I know if I shot him outside the US it wouldn’t be an issue, but it’s a technical violation if I shoot him in the US. How concerned should I be about his lack of a US government issued ID? I mean, the law is supposed to protect children - this is sort of absurd.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
You will also be violating immigration laws by filming him in the USA without a green card, or permission to work, etc.
I would not do it, but we run our stuff 100% above the board.
It sucks, because at the Phoenix Forum a few years ago we had a chance to film some really hot Canadian guys, but without the US ID and work visa, no go.
Good luck with your decision.
(I am not a lawyer, that is just my interpretation of the law as advised to me by my lawyer.)
Personally, I would never give the government something that easy to nail me on.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
What if he doesn’t get paid? I think that might be an option.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
My gut instinct is that would be illegal too, but I do not know for sure.
Why risk it? Why not just run to Canada or Mexico and film the guy? Or hire someone where the model lives to film it for you?
Surely there is some legal way to do it without putting yourself at risk IMHO.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
Sure, as long as you don’t film it. 2257 doesn’t distinguish between paid and non-paid. Right?
We have even required the girlfriends of some of our solo straight guys sign a model release and provide ID if they were to be on set.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
Does anyone else see the idiocy of this law? How is it not violating First Amendment rights if the model wasn’t paid and is of legal age and presents ID from a first world country that would be legal if filmed anywhere else in the world? I don’t get it.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
He is still technically “working” for you. It would be like McDonal’s saying, “work for free until you get your immigration in order.”
Why risk it?
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
I’m in complete agreement with you, and was bitching about this when it first went into effect in 2005. It has NOTHING to do with 2257, NOTHING to do with protecting children, and has no place in the law. It was most likely added because somebody wanted to restrict production of porn, and this was a way they could do it without anybody bitching. I think the immigration issue is a smokescreen; NAFTA would cover it.
But… I wouldn’t shoot it. I don’t think payment has any effect
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
Along with all that has been said here. You should also take into consideration the model.
He could be deported or be barred from entering the US from now on.
If you want to do it so bad. Drive up to Buffalo and cross the border and film in a hotel there.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
I actually went to an immigration attorney about 4-5 years ago to try to sort out this very issue.
It doesn’t matter if he gets paid or not, even volunteering is still considered work. If he doesn’t have a Visa or Green Card it is still in violation of immigration law therefore in violation of 2257.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
Why is everyone OK with me violating Canada’s labor laws? lol
The whole situation is just absurd… I wish some producer would challenge the law and get it struck down. I can’t see this aspect of it holding up in court, though I have zero interest going bankrupt proving that point.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
It’s not an immigration issue, it’s a 2257 identifcation document issue.
2257 says that the performer, if shot in the US, must have an acceptable photo ID, and then elsewhere, it says (paraphrasing) that an acceptable photo ID must be a US government-issued ID, or a foreign-issued ID if the person has a work visa. If the performer is shot outside the US, then the foreign-issued ID is fine.
Yes, it’s technically hiring an illegal worker if there’s no work visa, but I think you’d be in much bigger shit for the 2257 violation than you would be for a one-time payment of a few hundred bucks to somebody who wasn’t a citizen. In other words, immigration is pretty unlikely to come after you, while the moral police enforcing 2257 might.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
[QUOTE=gaybucks_chip;44869]It’s not an immigration issue, it’s a 2257 identifcation document issue.
Yes, it’s technically hiring an illegal worker if there’s no work visa, but I think you’d be in much bigger shit for the 2257 violation than you would be for a one-time payment of a few hundred bucks to somebody who wasn’t a citizen. In other words, immigration is pretty unlikely to come after you, while the moral police enforcing 2257 might.[/QUOTE]
But the thing is, I understand the immigration/labor issue. The amounts are small and I think it’s pretty insignificant, but overall it’s a good law.
But saying that an ID of someone who is clearly 30+ is only good if I shoot outside the US is infringing on my rights as a US citizen. It really has no purpose other than curtailing free speech. That law I don’t understand on any grounds.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
[QUOTE=gaybucks_chip;44869]It’s not an immigration issue, it’s a 2257 identifcation document issue.
[/QUOTE]
It’s actually both if you think about it. Basically, the 2257 regs are saying that you can film non US residents on US soil as long as you follow immigration laws.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
[QUOTE=rawTOP;44871]
But saying that an ID of someone who is clearly 30+ is only good if I shoot outside the US is infringing on my rights as a US citizen. [/QUOTE]
What right?
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
First Ammendment rights. If they’re not being paid I don’t see the issue. Last I knew people can come to the US to do volunteer work - it’s not a violation of immigration laws. The purpose of immigration laws is to protect American workers…
It’s a free speech issue. It bars me from making a documentary of someone who comes to NY on a sex holiday… Before you jump all over the documentary part - that was how Paul Morris (of Treasure Island) labeled himself when he started up - he basically documented barebacking in gay culture.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
[QUOTE=rawTOP;44874] The purpose of immigration laws is to protect American workers…
[/QUOTE]
This is not entirely true. The purpose of immigration law is also to protect foreign workers as well.
I think the main thing boils down to immigration law - is it legal for a porn producer to film a non US citizen on US soil without a work permit no matter if paid or not? If it’s not legal, then the 2257 law is basically saying you need to be in compliance with immigration law as well, so you can’t do it because you are breaking immigration law.
But, I do see your point. Ugh! 2257 drives me crazy.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
[QUOTE=abostonboy;44876]I think the main thing boils down to immigration law - is it legal for a porn producer to film a non US citizen on US soil without a work permit no matter if paid or not? If it’s not legal, then the 2257 law is basically saying you need to be in compliance with immigration law as well, so you can’t do it because you are breaking immigration law.
But, I do see your point. Ugh! 2257 drives me crazy.[/QUOTE]
Let’s change the scenario… Put someone on Times Square pulling people in to do a market research study that the person gets $100 for participating in. If they got a European tourist in the mix how big of a deal would it be? The Feds wouldn’t think twice - it’s not a violation worthy of any enforcement time, yet the person was paid for work and didn’t have a work permit.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
You know I am playing devil’s advocate to try and understand this law.
Scenario #2: Let’s say a McDonald’s has a line out the door. A tourist from Europe goes up to the manager and says I can help you out for an hour or two for free (about the same time it takes to film a shoot.) Would the manager be breaking the law?
I think you really have to look at what relationship exists when you film someone in porn. I don’t believe it’s an independent contractor relationship, but more of an employee relationship.
Re: Models Who Don’t Have US IDs
I think it’s pretty well established that (at least in NY) models are independent contractors - with the exception maybe of people with exclusive contracts. If that weren’t the case then workplace safety laws go into place and condoms (etc) would probably be mandatory. Employers are far more responsible for the safety of employees than contractors.