Affiliate Programs and Trust

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

Trust is a huge issue, particularly in this business, and I guess it boils down to who you do trust (and how you determine you can trust them.)

I am not sure, but in the case you’re describing it sounds more like the sponsor might not have realized the intricacies of that biller’s affiliate system (and there are definitely some weird and arcane things in that biller’s affiliate setup). But given a choice between a biller’s affiliate program and an unknown proprietary one by the site, I would probably, all things being equal, choose the biller’s affilate program. At least you know you’ll be paid promptly and on time, and the biller in question certainly has never been accused of shaving.

Now… if you trust the program, then it shouldn’t really matter if they are using a biller’s affiliate management or their own, or a third party such as NATS or MPA. However, I will also say that blind trust in a program because they use a third party such as NATS or MPA is misplaced; in spite of all of the marketing to the contrary, it is quite possible for underpayments to happen, which could be done intentionally or through buggy software. A good program will catch it and make it right; a less ethical program won’t bother to tell you or may even rig the system to take advantage.

There was a discussion some time back on GWW about whether you’re better off taking a program that you know is shaving, but pays out well in what you actually receive per-click, or whether you should take an honest program that pays less. I argued that with the shaving program, you really have no idea what you’re actually earning, so I’d choose the honest one, but I can see the argument the other way.

Also, I have to agree with you that the biller you’re referring to does, for some inexplicable reason, seem to have consistently lower conversion than the other major biller in our experience. However, from the perspective of the sponsor, there are other factors; customer service simply isn’t comparable between the two, and each offers options and flexibility the other does not. As far as integrity, they both seem to be honest in the way they conduct their business, as far as we’ve been able to tell.

We have always considered honesty and integrity as key in our communication with affiliates, and that’s one of the reasons why the current affiliate software we use has been so frustrating; I get really tired of explaining to affiliates why the software has broken again and/or why the reports are wrong again because it makes us look bad when, in reality, we’re the ones finding and reporting the problems to the vendor.

I don’t know for sure if other programs simply don’t have the problems, or have them but are afraid to mention them for fear of reprisals or loss of affiliates. (I suspect it’s the latter.) I guess it’s a business decision that each program has to make, and there is good and bad that comes from either choice, so it’s not cut and dried.

In short… I don’t think any of the affiliate billing solutions out there are perfect. Some are definitely better than others, and we are still trying to find the right, best solution for our affiliates and our own needs. But what it boils down to in the end, at least for me, is that affiliates need to check up on their sponsors, and, at the same time, if they have a sponsor they suspect isn’t being straight with them, there is little or no reason to continue working with that sponsor when there are so many others to choose from.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

Wow, this is a big question, but a very good one.

As a content provider myself and using a 3rd program; I do wonder (and worry for my affiliates) about these things too. I don’t have any knowledge on how my 3rd party deals with these things, I just hope it all goes well; sometimes I do email my affiliates and ask them if they get their payments on time.

But this is a good question, so all of you please input here!

1 thing I DID pick up on …
you mentioned cookies when it comes to affiliate A or B getting the commission.

How does it work for this?:

Surfer X sees site Z at affiliate A on 1 Aug at 1pm (cookie set …)
Surfer X goes away - surfs more and happens to stumble on site Z again at affiliate B (Aug 1 at 2pm) - now he has seen 2 sites recommending Z - so he signs up … Who deserves the commission?

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

[QUOTE=fetishlad;17669]

How does it work for this?:

Surfer X sees site Z at affiliate A on 1 Aug at 1pm (cookie set …)
Surfer X goes away - surfs more and happens to stumble on site Z again at affiliate B (Aug 1 at 2pm) - now he has seen 2 sites recommending Z - so he signs up … Who deserves the commission?[/QUOTE]

This has always been an issue with cookies. Some say the first should get the sale while others say the second should.

Most programs give the sale to the last affiliate link. I didn’t realize that any had a cookie so it couldn’t be overwritten.

I still say the sale should be given to the last webmaster. But, in the end, it all equals out. You gain some sales, and you lose some sales. IMHO, as long as all affiliates are on the same playing field.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

[QUOTE=rawTOP;17656]

Naturally I follow up with payment processor’s customer service and ask how another affiliate’s code got on the sale and was told that it’s the first affiliate that sets the referral cookie that is credited with the sale, not the last. [/QUOTE]

Did you actually verify this yourself by checking the join page after visiting two affiliate links? I was under the impression that this biller did not set a cookie that couldn’t be overwritten.

I have asked this biller the question before. Asked 5 people. Finally, I got three to agree that it was the last and not the first. But, there ya go!

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

@GayBucks_Chip - I really appreciate your comments… Especially your confirming that conversion ratios are lower than average for programs run by that payment processor.

And lastly I’d like to add that the site owner got back to me and was shocked to hear that he hadn’t set things up properly. He’s escalating it with the payment processor to get it resolved. There’s something in how he states things that makes me believe him. So it does appear to be a genuine mistake, which is why I don’t think any of this is an issue of blame so much as how can we learn from these situations and avoid getting hurt by them.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

You need to choose your sponsors wisely I think. Its not as simple as just checking up on them. How can you do that when many sponsor consider test transactions, even when reported to the sponsor, as fraud.

I know some sponsors will allow a test transactions as theyve nothing to hide but Ive been kicked off PPS by a webcams sponsor for doing a test, AND emailing them to say pls deduct one sale from me as I did a test (something fraudsters dont tend to do Id guess). I left that sponsor as I thought “what are they so scared of?” - also worth pointing out I didnt ask for a refund, I was happy to loose the money and not claim the sale.

This case sounds more like a mistake than a scam to me. Probably bad webmaster suport on the billers side, personally Id have apologised, credited your account, and made sure it wasnt likely to happen again.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

Boston,

but the biller you asked then contradicts itself - if raw asked and got told the 1st one and you got told the 2nd one (regarding the cookie that counts)

unless both of you - who are not naming names - are talking about different billers…

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

[QUOTE=rawTOP;17679]@GayBucks_Chip - I really appreciate your comments… Especially your confirming that conversion ratios are lower than average for programs run by that payment processor.

And lastly I’d like to add that the site owner got back to me and was shocked to hear that he hadn’t set things up properly. He’s escalating it with the payment processor to get it resolved. There’s something in how he states things that makes me believe him. So it does appear to be a genuine mistake, which is why I don’t think any of this is an issue of blame so much as how can we learn from these situations and avoid getting hurt by them.[/QUOTE]

I am sure it is a genuine mistake on his part. This payment processor is notorious for giving out information that is just not accurate at times. I don’t think they do it by intention either. I have learned to get at least three answers to the same question and only when a majority say one or the other do I stop asking.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

99% of my rev comes from VOD, not affiliate payouts from sponsors, BUT in the context of “shaving”…

I have a VOD provider that about once a month, a day will go by where the stats don’t update.

I’ve been doing this for 3 years, and in VOD, the rules of statistical probability really show up. I can reliably and predictably earn XXX dollars per day, so to not make ANY dollars in a one-day time period is obvious.

That $0 day is preceded by 30 days of the reliable X dollars per day, and followed as well. But there in the middle, like a donut hole, is a ZERO!

It’s not like the Stats keeper might have gone fishing on Tuesday, then on Wednesday the number is twice what it should have been - Tues and Wed combined, it is just not there.

So annoying. Yet we’re so helpless because who ya gonna call??

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

We have our own merchant account, but our affiliate program is handled by CCBill. It’s gives our affiliates a little extra assurance that our program is on the up and up and gives us the freedom to concentrate on providing the excellent quality content for our members, third party Video Feed subscribers and Affiliates.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

That’s what is great about boards like this. Though affiliates may never know if they are getting 100% of the sales (regardless of who made the error), places like this help people identify the “most honest” sites and we can spend our time promoting them.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

Due to such a lot of problems in the last 1 or 2 years with getting paid by Sponsors using their own systesm, I now prefer and only really promote programs who use Epoch, CCBill, Verotel etc. Or atleast NATS. I do think twice before signing up, where as I used to not worry much. If its a well known name that also helps for making up my mind.

Only in the last 2 years I have removed and stopped advertising well over 200 sites for different reasons including payment problems, odd stats, traffic leaks etc. Thats a pretty high turnover of sponsors!

The larger billing compainies have their faults, but I having a 3rd party dealing with payouts and stats really makes up for most of those.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

which reminded me of a example just yeasterday.

A site owner contacted me, wanting me to signup for his program. But he wanted us to discuss and decide how much the commission would be. He told me he did different for everyone… he didnt use any of the larger billing providers but his own bank / merchant account because it was cheaper… Neither did he use NATs but his own little system.

A few years back I would probably have tested it out. Now? Never, no chance I would bother to even test it. Simply not worth the hassle.

Now how can you trust that? I dont know him, never seen the site before and not even got a established commission setup.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

[QUOTE=gaydemon;17710]which reminded me of a example just yeasterday.

A site owner contacted me, wanting me to signup for his program. But he wanted us to discuss and decide how much the commission would be. He told me he did different for everyone… he didnt use any of the larger billing providers but his own bank / merchant account because it was cheaper… Neither did he use NATs but his own little system.

A few years back I would probably have tested it out. Now? Never, no chance I would bother to even test it. Simply not worth the hassle.

Now how can you trust that? I dont know him, never seen the site before and not even got a established commission setup.[/QUOTE]

Is someone cooking breakfast? I could swear I smell “Scam and Eggs”!lol

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

[QUOTE=gaydemon;17706]Due to such a lot of problems in the last 1 or 2 years with getting paid by Sponsors using their own systesm, I now prefer and only really promote programs who use Epoch, CCBill, Verotel etc. Or atleast NATS. I do think twice before signing up, where as I used to not worry much. If its a well known name that also helps for making up my mind.

The larger billing compainies have their faults, but I having a 3rd party dealing with payouts and stats really makes up for most of those.[/QUOTE]

Are there cases, even with 3rd party involvement, that you avoid just because you can tell there are likely to be problems? Things like two semi-connected sites each with it’s own affiliate program? Or do you just watch for a while and drop ones with low conversion ratios? If so, what’s your threshold?

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

Good question.

What I do, if its site using CCBill, Epoch, Verotel or DHD. I take them on, run them for around 4-6 months, then check on how its going.

By then you can see what’s going on, if there are little or no sales. Bad conversion ratios etc. Over a longer period and more traffic its easy to spot problems and I check each site over and try and find what it is. Then when I know why (if i find out) I then decide what to do.

I either drop the site, change the amount of traffic I send, or change how its advertised. All depending on what it might be.

The easiest ones to figure out are always the worst ones. Like traffic leaks or as many times have happened, the join page uses a different billing company (I use ccbill codes, the join page uses verotel).

But I continue to do the same every few months for all sites even after the first 6 months. My spreadsheet (with the help of statsremote) gives me warnings when a site goes below a set amount ($0.02 / hit). So I can easily see when something isnt quite right.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

Initially, I treat all sponsors with suspicion, and those using NATS or their own in-house systems with extreme mistrust. This is based on two years of bad experiences. Its in the nature of sponsors to try to steal from affiliates if they can get away with it.

Its reached the point for me when I’m reluctant to sign up for any new programs that are using NATS or their own systems.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

[QUOTE=Hammerhead;17723]
Its reached the point for me when I’m reluctant to sign up for any new programs that are using NATS or their own systems.[/QUOTE]

And we hear that from a lot of programs. It’s really sad, given that NATS original selling point was its reliability and resistance to shaving.

It still amazes me that there are so few real options for sponsors as far as third-party affiliate software.

For anyone making a new purchase, there’s really only one real option that seems to be universally accepted (MPA), unless you want to go with something relatively unknown. It still surprises me that ExecutiveStats isn’t being pushed more aggressively by NatNet, since I keep hearing good things about it.

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

Why are the processors not offering more hand-holding when it comes to helping sponsors setting up their affiliate programs? It seems to me if the processors were educating and helping sponsors, then it works to everyone’s advantage.

  1. Sponsors won’t be embarrassed.

  2. Sponsors and processors won’t be the targets of attacks by webmasters on the boards, which gives both the sponsor and the biller a bad rap.

  3. Webmasters are happy because they’re getting paid.

Michael

Re: Affiliate Programs and Trust

Exactly… But just the opposite seems to be happening.

The sponsor wrote an e-mail that went to me and the payment processor in which he said “It never entered my mind that setting up a joint sign up for both our sites would exclude any of our affiliates from their payouts just because they did not have an affiliate account with the sub account which [payment processor] requires when setting up the join link, in this case 3000.”

To which ‘support’ at the payment processor replied “The Affiliate programs webmaster has the ability to setup individual programs for the each sub-account or for the account as a whole. This program as you know, has been setup with an individual affiliate program for each sub-account. The account that you have sent a sale to currently does not have an affiliate program setup.”

How in the hell does that help the sponsor resolve the issue? He even acknowledges that what he’s saying the sponsor already knows. If they weren’t so frustrating the responses would be laughable. Responses like that were very typical in the 30ish e-mails that went back and forth. They often completely missed the point and almost never addressed the real issues that could resolve the problem. It’s like they’re being paid per e-mail and want to drag it out as long as possible…