XXX TOS madness

Re: XXX TOS madness

So, as a proponent of .XXX, how does CF justify supporting a business development that will limit the reach of your own product, provide no substantial benefit to those in the industry, promotes the ideology of censorship, tarnishes the adult industry as being “predators” (no doubt you’ve seen people commenting about Universities having to protect themselves against the “big bad pornographer”) and gives the impression to many others in the business - who have otherwise supported you - that you are one of the “bad guys”?

I don’t mean to offend, I would just really like to see your explanations as to why you have chosen to defend something that the vast majority of the adult industry is entirely against.

Re: XXX TOS madness

Not to answer for Corbin Fischer, or anyone else for that matter. But ultimately, I think it all comes down to money and greed. I think some members of our industry were lured in by the prospects of making money…a lot of money. Do you really believe Corbin paid $500k for gay.xxx or do you think it could have just been a clever P.R. statement to get a company with a big name and good reputation to throw their support behind .xxx and develop the domain? I’m not saying that happened nor do I have any proof behind such an allegation, but I do think there is a lot more going behind the scenes then any of us know.

Re: XXX TOS madness

[QUOTE=conran;107041]So, as a proponent of .XXX, how does CF justify supporting a business development that will limit the reach of your own product, provide no substantial benefit to those in the industry, promotes the ideology of censorship, tarnishes the adult industry as being “predators” (no doubt you’ve seen people commenting about Universities having to protect themselves against the “big bad pornographer”) and gives the impression to many others in the business - who have otherwise supported you - that you are one of the “bad guys”?

I don’t mean to offend, I would just really like to see your explanations as to why you have chosen to defend something that the vast majority of the adult industry is entirely against.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, I think there’s a flaw in your question(s). The conditions you impose upon the question(s) - such as it limiting the reach of our product, providing no substantial benefit, promoting censorship, et al - are subjective; subjective opinions among some designate .xxx as doing all of those things mentioned. Now, those are reasonable opinions which people are entitled to have, but opinions nonetheless. I don’t think your question is fair, as it treats as given fact things which are not that. There’s no fair way to answer that question.

If you were to have asked me, “Do you feel .xxx limits the reach of your product, provides no substantial benefit, promotes censorship…” etc, etc… then I would say, “No”.

In and of itself, .xxx does none of those things. I’m not going to defend ICM or attempt to say anything on their behalf, but .xxx is no more than your standard (s)TLD. In only does any of the things you suggest are inherent to it (which I would dispute), indirectly, through action undertaken and imposed by others; .xxx would in no way censor unless and until legislative action came about to use it as a tool of such; I don’t see how it limits the reach of business in any way, in and of itself; the only ones to whom it tarnishes the adult industry are already the types all too eager to already view it as tarnished.

Mind you, I don’t think any of what I’ve said above “defends” .xxx. Likewise, I don’t think pointing out people drawing faulty assumptions about ICM’s TOS “defends” .xxx. Someone started a thread that misrepresented facts and misinterpreted their terms, and I think it only reasonable the flawed conclusions being drawn get pointed out as such. That is defending fact, not ICM. Similarly, I don’t think that pointing out some of the conclusions prematurely drawn in your question are subjective is necessarily defending .xxx so much as pointing out the belief they are subjective and are by no means indisputable fact.

All that having been said, our views re: .xxx come from a perspective that has accepted the following circumstances:

  • .xxx exists now, whether people like it or not.
  • Consumers are a) unaware of the controversy surrounding .xxx b) do not view things from the perspective of industry professionals c) do not perceive themselves to have a vested interest, in terms of constitutional rights or civil liberties, in the issue of .xxx
  • it had been apparent for quite some time that .xxx would come to be, and the approach by many in the industry to ignore that fact likely interfered with the ability of many in the industry to contribute, productively, to policies and guidelines that would be a part of .xxx’s implementation
  • .xxx domains will be acquired by industry insiders and others, whether we like it or not; every company needs to make its own decisions on whether they’ll be among those acquiring and developing them.

Now, I’ll certainly not criticize why some choose to oppose .xxx or why various industry groups or companies have chosen to oppose it. Many are noble in their intentions. The how is where the approaches of many have become flawed. For quite some time it was apparent ICANN would approve .xxx, and for quite some time thereafter it was apparent .xxx would come to be. Many chose to focus resources on attempting to turn back the clock, rather than contribute substantively and productively to .xxx’s implementation. Anyone that did was demonized, accused of being a collaborateur, and might as well have had their heads shaved and paraded through the city center while the townsfolk pelted them with rotten fruit and vegetables.

But there are some unpleasant realities those opposed to .xxx would best be served to accept: it exists and others are buying and developing the domains. For every large, deep-pocketed, primarily straight company outspoken in their opposition to .xxx, there are others quietly snatching up .xxx URLs with the intent to do stuff with them; for every adult company professing they are acquiring .xxx versions of their domains defensively, there are others quietly acquiring them with every intention of using them as an offensive tool. Through all of this, consumers will be unaware or simply not care, and want porn regardless.

Someone was going to do something with gay.xxx, and customers desiring xxx gay material were going to end up there. We feel we can make their ending up there a worthwhile experience. Simple as that.

Re: XXX TOS madness

Guilty as charged. Yes, we are a business and we are interested in making money. Preferably, a lot of money.

I’m not saying that happened nor do I have any proof behind such an allegation

I do appreciate your including that disclaimer, and simply wanted to draw attention to it.

Re: XXX TOS madness

Guilty as charged. Yes, we are a business and we are interested in making money. Preferably, a lot of money.

Of course we all want to make money and I don’t fault anyone for that. However, as a business owner, you also have to decide what is ethically right and wrong in the way you do business. Does .xxx hurt Webmasters? I would argue, yes. Just as one example. I am now going to have to either dish out an extra 2k - 3k per year in defensive domain registrations to ‘protect my brands’ or else have to deal with getting trademarks on all my domains and paying lawyers to fight legal battles; neither of which is particularly appealing and will effect the bottom line of a small business owner like myself.

I do appreciate your including that disclaimer, and simply wanted to draw attention to it
.

I’m sorry to single you out as well and mean no disrespect, I’ve always supported the efforts you guys have made in regards to fighting piracy. I was just trying to make a bigger point, which is that I believe the .xxx TLD only benefits a select few Webmasters and business men and does not adequately represent the adult industry. I think a LOT of changes would have to be made for it to be worthy of the majority of webmasters’ support. And without our support and traffic, .xxx is just going to become an empty and worthless TLD used largely just for defensive registrations.

Re: XXX TOS madness

[QUOTE=dannyz;107046]Of course we all want to make money and I don’t fault anyone for that. However, as a business owner, you also have to decide what is ethically right and wrong in the way you do business. Does .xxx hurt Webmasters? I would argue, yes. Just as one example. I am now going to have to either dish out an extra 2k - 3k per year in defensive domain registrations to ‘protect my brands’ or else have to deal with getting trademarks on all my domains and paying lawyers to fight legal battles; neither of which is particularly appealing and will effect the bottom line of a small business owner like myself.
[/QUOTE]

There are many elements of the status quo in adult that I lose more sleep over at night than .xxx, and which everyone seems to accept as a given.

  • The fact that a handful of processing companies handle a such a huge percentage of adult site transactions bothers me, as do the rates they usually charge.
  • Visa and Mastercard’s collective marketshare bothers me
  • The number of search traffic Google controls, and how ineffective any of their competitors are at chipping in to it
  • the threat piracy poses, and how apathetic some seem to be about it (or how they choose to actually support it, feeling it can be a “marketing” tool)
  • the affiliate model, which dilutes the value of content by requiring too much free distribution of content in exchange for traffic, and which too many people in the industry support.

… all of which could potentially be real threats to the industry. And yet we thrive and do well despite the above. I hope and suspect the same will be the case with .xxx and it will prove, in fact, far more benign than any of the aforementioned.

We have some big plans for gay.xxx, which in no way involve keeping it to ourselves. We’re confident many gay adult producers can and will benefit from what we have planned for it.

Re: XXX TOS madness

Ultimately what I’ll say is I certainly do not condemn anyone for their opposition to .xxx, and can see where the opposition often comes from.

I simply feel it worthwhile that discussions re: .xxx include facts and truth, and we all do our best to avoid hearsay, rumor, unfounded speculation and the like. I saw this thread appear, and it was immediately clear to me the portion of the TOS people were up in arms about is precisely the same TOS segment found in GoDaddy’s, found on YouTube, found on Facebook, and found on countless other websites I’m sure we all come across everyday. We’ve all likely agreed to and accepted website Terms of Service that include portions that are almost verbatim to the subject of this thread. Some of our own sites, in fact, likely have the same clause in their TOS. I waited for awhile before saying anything, hoping others would point that out (and a few did but seemed to get drowned out).

I really do admire many for taking a stand against .xxx because I see genuinely noble intentions behind their doing so; I often see what I feel are misguided approaches, but that is by no means universally the case and it in no way changes my belief the intentions are indeed often noble (granted, there are others I think with less noble intentions speaking out against .xxx but we can leave that for another discussion). I nonetheless think it best for everyone discussions remain sourced in fact and accuracy.

Re: XXX TOS madness

[QUOTE=CorbinFisher_BD;107047]

  • the affiliate model, which dilutes the value of content by requiring too much free distribution of content in exchange for traffic, and which too many people in the industry support.[/QUOTE]

I’m guessing this is why I (and many others from what I have read) never got approved for an affiliate account?

Sincerely,
Kevin.

PS. Slightly off topic I know… Sorry :blushing:

Re: XXX TOS madness

It wasn’t my intention to falsely accuse ICM or misuse any part of their Terms of Service. As I read the terms, it was my understanding that this part of the term would be applicable to all sites hosted on a dot xxx TLD (and it seems I wasn’t the only one).

Now if this applies to ICM’s own sites, it’s a different story and I don’t think these terms are unfair or could do any harm and indeed the terms would then be similar to GayDemon’s terms for example. However, at the moment ICM does not provide a service where users submit content in any kind of way.

I think these terms can be explained in several kind of ways if there is a need to, but again I am not a lawyer.

Re: XXX TOS madness

And so starts the .XXX “morality” debate. Anyone want to buy .XXX domains? I have them for sale (ducks). Remember it is just about business.

Re: XXX TOS madness

I very much appreciate your thorough response to my argument, it’s clear that you have spent some time to come to your opinions.

However, I feel that your argument is flawed in one respect, and that would be “reasonable expectation”.

Successful businesses consider the long term, as I know you would agree. This requires a level of foresight and prediction in relation to how a business model, market, consumer trends and technology will develop. You have shown this by buying into the .XXX market and you’ve stated this through your belief that others ignored and neglected their chance to offer input (which I would dispute. Decisions have been made without consulting anyone, clearly in an effort to maximize the profit of a few). You have no doubt looked at all the possibilities and believe that .XXX will be a successful endeavor.

You have assessed that buying a .XXX was a wise move because you clearly feel that it will be profitable. I have clearly decided that it will not be worth my support or investment based upon my own thoughts about how this has been greeted and the damage that I see it could do to the adult industry as a whole.
As you have stated, we all make our own business decisions, but why are the expectations of others in relation to .XXX unfounded, while your expectations for .XXX are solid? They are all forecasts of what we expect to happen based on what we know and previous experience. No one can prove that .XXX will be a fantastic development for the adult industry, and no one can prove that it won’t lead to increased censorship, limitations and further restrictions. But based on my own intelligence, there is more to suggest to me that this is a negative development than there is to suggest that it benefits anyone other than Mr. Lawley himself.

Based on our experiences relating to internet freedoms, it is reasonable to expect that several nations will indeed block all .XXX domains. This is not a fantasy and has been stated by some oppressive regimes. Therefore, by supporting .XXX a company is also supporting internet censorship. It is creating further opportunity to control and manipulate what individuals have access to. Of course, we can argue that these nations are not under our sphere of influence, that access to adult media is not on the same level as other media, and that each government has the right to do as they wish - but it certainly cannot be argued that .XXX is a great move for internet freedom in any respect. The fact is that what many see as unnecessary implementation of .XXX will reduce the freedoms that others have.

It is also fair to assume that there may come a time when .XXX is used as a tool to provide tiered services by service providers. Again, this isn’t unfounded speculation, it is reasonable expectation.
CF has made a business decision to increase profit, and service providers will also see a great opportunity to increase profit by providing a segregated service for those who submit to pay a fee for access. Why would it be unreasonable to expect this to occur? It has happened previously, it’s a standard business model practiced by cable TV suppliers, previous internet services have managed to implement restrictions like this without having .XXX to block in such an easy way.

It will be interesting to see how those who operate a .XXX domain will feel when their paying customers have to pay more to access their site to begin with. It is perhaps fair to assume that once service providers start introducing fees for .XXX access, the use of tubes and other free content will increase. If .XXX has not been made mandatory, those operating adult .COM sites will see a benefit.

While I agree that many outside of the industry have very limited awareness of .XXX, I believe there will come a time when service providers and governments will use this method to restrict or otherwise control access. The mere fact that there is the OPPORTUNITY to do this is enough for many in the industry to be rightly concerned.

The fact remains, we have not needed, nor will we need, .XXX. Our businesses have existed and thrived without it. I have yet to see one person explain the perceived benefits of .XXX in any convincing manner beyond the knee-jerk right-wing “won’t somebody think of the children!” While I have seen countless reasons for its complete dismissal.

The benefits are extremely few, if any exist, and the risks to the adult entertainment business are numerous.

Re: XXX TOS madness

Now I really am confused!

We agree on many of these points, and I’m certain that other webmasters will also. But, I have to question the logic of making the above statements while you support .XXX and their high fees, their methods of scaring other entities into protecting their brand, and their desire to control the adult internet market.

Aren’t you just supporting another monopoly with high fees and a desire to control adult business?

Re: XXX TOS madness

  • the affiliate model, which dilutes the value of content by requiring too much free distribution of content in exchange for traffic, and which too many people in the industry support.

Personally speaking, I’d be losing a hell of a lot more sleep if we didn’t have affiliates to send us traffic and promote our sites. I hardly see the comparison between the affiliate model and .xxx. Affiliates provides us traffic, a steady income, and extremely valuable advertising. I think all of the Affiliate Programs that are advertising on this board would testify to that. .xxx has absolutely no value or benefit whatsoever, and comes with a hefty price tag. Sure someone will probably reply about all the great benefits we’re going to see from ‘micro payment systems’ and ‘virus scans’ but do you really think surfers are going to care about those things? And who knows what other mandatory regulations or ‘services’ .xxx is going to force on domain owners without their consent and charge us for? Personally I think it’s dangerous territory when a TLD mandates and dictates to domain owners that they have to pay for services that they don’t want or aren’t going to use.

Re: XXX TOS madness

I don’t want to sidetrack the .xxx discussion in the thread, but want to point out I think there’s a very real difference between quality affiliates who perform a valuable role in introducing surfers to a sponsor’s sites and content and refer quality traffic, vs. affiliates who contribute little value to the process. When I speak of the affiliate model diluting the value of content, I speak of:

  • Affiliates who do nothing more than re-post sponsor’s content with little original, editorial, or creative contribution of their own.
  • Sponsors who compete for affiliates by doing all of the affiliates’ work for them and distributing too much free content in an effort to compete for affiliates
  • Affiliates who “intercept” traffic already destined for sponsor sites by using paid adwords campaigns on sponsors’ trademarks
  • Sponsors who, to enable unreasonably high payouts to affiliates, subject surfers to excessive upsells, misleading join options, and so on.

We’re fortunate to have some incredible affiliates with websites that are not only valuable sources of traffic for their sponsors, but worthwhile sites to visit on a regular basis for their own surfers; there are affiliate sites with original and appealing editorial, writing, design, presentation, and more and who effectively attract traffic, as well as distribute it to sponsors. Unfortunately, I think even they are outnumbered by affiliates who do no more than demand greater amounts of free content from sponsors and turn around to regurgitate that to their own surfers, getting too familiar with having to put no effort or wor in to things and getting their surfers too familiar with extensive amounts of free content.

Re: XXX TOS madness

Conran,
I appreciate your sharing your viewpoints on things.

Clearly we’re never going to agree, and could spend endless months going back and forth on things, point by point.

What are reasonable expectations to you are not to us, and I would suspect our own reasonable expectations are ones you would not agree with. I think some of the slippery slope, worst case scenarios many anticipate require too much assumption, and assumption geared in a single direction that makes their own expectations the only possible outcome when that need not be the case.

Ultimately, what some view as an issue that only has two options - support vs. oppose - we see, pragmatically, as an issue that has essentially been settled by parties none of us can control, and it’s worthwhile to make the most of and make the best out of circumstances that will exist regardless.

Re: XXX TOS madness

Ultimately, what some view as an issue that only has two options - support vs. oppose - we see, pragmatically, as an issue that has essentially been settled by parties none of us can control, and it’s worthwhile to make the most of and make the best out of circumstances that will exist regardless.

Hey I agree with you here, that’s one of the reason I’ve been trying to work directly with the IFFOR and .xxx to make actual meaningful changes that would be of true benefit to all Webmasters, and not just a few rich people. I think many Webmasters like myself are still going to have a bad taste in our mouth at the way this was all implemented, amongst other things, for a long time to come. However, I also realize there is no way we can make it ‘just go away.’ I do think Webmasters can make a huge impact though by boycotting .xxx, and not doing business with .xxx sites, thus making .xxx a largely empty and worthless TLD. I think perhaps we should make a list of demands that would have to be met for the boycott to end, such as fair pricing and a system that truly represents and includes the Webmasters it purports to represent.

Now there are of course some people that are more extreme and will never support .xxx no matter what changes are made, and for good reasons (the ease of censorship that .xxx brings along with it, for one). However, since there is nothing I can personally do about that and .xxx is already passed, I think that a boycott and an educational campaign to surfers is the only way to get .xxx to listen to us and make the kinds of sweeping changes that would be necessary to make it a service most webmasters would even consider using. But as for my position, I’m not going to be so extreme as to rule out that .xxx could change and become something that, while I may not support, I could accept it’s right to exist and use in much the same way as I would any other TLD. Perhaps I’m misguided in my thinking on this, but I’m aiming for an outcome that is at least realistic, rather then one that I believe is unobtainable.

I will say that at least we now have an open dialogue, and I do appreciate people like Chad and Corbin coming to the board and discussing their positions with us.

Re: XXX TOS madness

What a discussion and worth every minute to read through!

My only concern is still valid as I see it however CF.

A door frame has been installed, the door has been hung on its hinges, it currently swings open by simply turning the door handle as with any door. However, the possibility of it becoming a locked door is very great as I see it.

There is talk of nations blocking .xxx via ISP’s. If one ISP does it, then another, and another… and never mind the reasons that they are, the fact is simply “that they are blocking .xxx” You can’t make money if you have no customers walking through the door!

We all know the power of the almighty $dollar (money). What or Who is going to stop the onslaught?

First, one nation does it, then another, and another. The fight against porn on the internet is nothing new. This, in my opinion or simple minded thinking if you prefer to call it, sure seems to be a powerful tool for “porn opposition” to use, abuse and help radicate porn on the “super information highway”.

To coin an old phrase… “give them an inch, and they’ll take a mile.”

Re: XXX TOS madness

This is the crux of my argument against .XXX

While many others suggest that it is simply an unlikely possibility, or speculation, we all make business decisions for the future, and I see it as a genuine threat.
The benefits of introducing .XXX are almost non-existent (I have yet to hear a convincing reason for implementing it in the first place), while the risk to the industry and the possibility of increase censorship is ten-fold. In my opinion, that is not acceptable.

I don’t understand how people can be so supportive of it, or be so dismissive of the risk to the adult entertainment industry. All you need to do is listen to several of your Republican politicians any day of the week to hear their opinions on gay rights and adult media. To make their job even easier by supporting this move to .XXX is complete lunacy.

Re: XXX TOS madness

.XXX is just another TLD like the rest of them. Soon there will be many more .kids .dog .cat .bob .conran … apply for your own TLD go for it…

Re: XXX TOS madness

Oh BTW, it’ll cost you $185,000 to apply for one…