Evaluating Twink/Teen Sites

[rawTOP]

What criteria do you guys use to evaluate twink/teen sites in terms of whether the content on them is legal or not? I don't really give any credibility to the "The guys look too young to me". That seems like it's right up there in accuracy with "The guy looks poz (or neg)". Sure, there are some obvious ones you're bound to get right - if the guys balls haven't dropped (for the age issue) and guys with clear lipodystrophy (for the poz issue), but most of the time you'll wind up being wrong.

I'm guessing the billing processor is a big clue with ones billing through CCBill being more likely to be legal.

And I imagine googling the site name and seeing ChillingEffect.org notices in the SERPs is a big warning sign. But even that isn't perfect - there's a reason why it's called Chilling Effects and not something like MajorOffenders.org

The reason I ask is because someone contacted me the other day to promote them. I had signed up months ago (through CCBill), but never did that much - only sent something like 200 referrals to them via a text link and never made a sale.

The guys they have in their promo materials all look quite legal (they look like twinks not boys), but again, that's not something I put too much weight in. They pretty consistently shave the guys pubes, so I know they're going for a younger look - which is a bit "pervey", but hardly illegal. In some cases the shave wasn't recent and the model has a fair amount of stubble down there. Speaking of photography and art direction - it's incredible. The locations, the lighting - a lot of work goes into their content...

And lastly when I google the name there are no pages pulled, and I see them being promoted by places like QueerClick and Rabbits Reviews.

In other words, I think I'm safe on this one, but just wondering if I there were factors I should have considered...

[gaydemon]

I disagree, the only way you can do it is by how they look. I mainly use my own judgement to decide what is ok to advertise or not. I don't believe in 2257 statements, they are unreliable and can use a fake address or name (on european sites).

I really dont seen anything wrong with "The guys look too young to me", if a model looks the same age as my 13yo nephew then I would never want to advertise it. Unfortunately there are a large amount of "legal" twink sites that use models that fit that criteria.

The bottom line is if a site uses very young looking models, or try and make them look underage (as you mentioned by shaving pubes) they do it for a reason. I would not want to earn money from people like that or be a part of what they do. They are trying to cash in on CP.

Apart from looks, sometimes you can spot bad sites by what words they use. I avoid sites that use statments like "young boys" or similiar.




What criteria do you guys use to evaluate twink/teen sites in terms of whether the content on them is legal or not? I don't really give any credibility to the "The guys look too young to me". ..

[rawTOP]

I disagree, the only way you can do it is by how they look. I mainly use my own judgement to decide what is ok to advertise or not. I don't believe in 2257 statements, they are unreliable and can use a fake address or name (on european sites).

I really dont seen anything wrong with "The guys look too young to me", if a model looks the same age as my 13yo nephew then I would never want to advertise it. Unfortunately there are a large amount of "legal" twink sites that use models that fit that criteria.

I've asked a sponsor for the real age of a model on a few occasions and better than half the time been surprised at what's on their documentation. I don't think I'm a good judge of age at all... There are so many variables. There are jockish 18 year olds that look 21 or 22, and petite 22 year olds that look 18. Now imagine that a petite guy modeled when he was 18 - he'd look years younger back then as well... Or if the jockish 18 year old modeled when he was 16 or 17 - he'd look completely legal...

[Squirt]

Doing a Google search for backlinks can yield some clues by Googling link:sitename.com but I've gotten little or none results trying that lately.

I used to be an awful judge of age until I became a parent, now it's pretty easy to tell. I've shot guys that look 18-20 and are in their mid to late 20's. I shot a 22 year old balding buzzcut marine that looked like he was in his 30's.

It depends on how much risk you want to take with your business. Your best bet is to keep doing what you're doing and ask others in the business about the site.

[rawTOP]

Your best bet is to keep doing what you're doing and ask others in the business about the site.

The site that prompted the question was KimPrivate.com. As I said, while the hairless pubes thing is a little pervey, it seems OK in terms of my view of Bjorn's test of "do they look legal?"

I did notice that the 2257 URL that was working when I first set up the site in my db is no longer working. I've sent off a message about that earlier today - could be an innocent mistake... My copy of what the page used to have on it gave a custodian of records address in Australia and it had phone numbers on it, which you don't normally find.

The DNS registration is not private and lists an address in Sweden.

In other words, other than the fact that they've screwed up their 2257 page and don't have the link on every page, it looks pretty above board to me.

[gaydemon]

I would be very careful with that site, I know if from years back. It is owned by Kim himself from what I understand but problem is that Kim's site has been around for longer than he has been 18 (if I don't remember wrong), I hope that makes sense... He also features his "friends" who again could have been any age at the time the photos were taken. The site might have 2257 statment but it means absolutly nothing in this case.

I'm fairly sure its a Dutch site by the way, even if the DNS is swedish.




The site that prompted the question was KimPrivate.com. As I said, while the hairless pubes thing is a little pervey, it seems OK in terms of my view of Bjorn's test of "do they look legal?"

I did notice that the 2257 URL that was working when I first set up the site in my db is no longer working. I've sent off a message about that earlier today - could be an innocent mistake... My copy of what the page used to have on it gave a custodian of records address in Australia and it had phone numbers on it, which you don't normally find.

The DNS registration is not private and lists an address in Sweden.

In other words, other than the fact that they've screwed up their 2257 page and don't have the link on every page, it looks pretty above board to me.

[gaydemon]

I do agree with you, it can be hard to tell. I've never liked twinks myself (I prefer em big and rough) so maybe thats why its easier for me. But in the end of the day I rather be harsh and skip some sites by being wrong and making an incorrect judgement than advertise a "bad" site.

This is all very theoretical but think about it like this. By advertising a site you are encouraging that behaviour and business model. Do you really want more sites where they make their models look younger than they are?

Also interesting to note, here in the UK its illegal and you can be punished severly if you choose to alter images, make models look younger etc.




I've asked a sponsor for the real age of a model on a few occasions and better than half the time been surprised at what's on their documentation. I don't think I'm a good judge of age at all... There are so many variables. There are jockish 18 year olds that look 21 or 22, and petite 22 year olds that look 18. Now imagine that a petite guy modeled when he was 18 - he'd look years younger back then as well... Or if the jockish 18 year old modeled when he was 16 or 17 - he'd look completely legal...

[Maryflixxx]

lso interesting to note, here in the UK its illegal and you can be punished severly if you choose to alter images, make models look younger etc.

That is punishable in Canadian law as well, although porn cases don't often make it to court here unless it is a blatant issue.
It is also illegal in Canada to simulate CP - take a model who is 18+ and do the photography in such a way that it is supposed to look CP.

Again, difficult to prosecute, but I think a lawyer would have more luck with a case such as that.

[abostonboy]

In the US simulated CP is legal, which I have very mixed feelings about.

[Squirt]

I didn't know what Bjorn knows and just going on that I personally would stay away. Shame too because there are some REALLY HOT guys on there, and a few that look possibly underage (not hot).

Googling Kimprivate I see sites promoting them as having "young boys" like this one (http://www.boyreview.com/nude_boys_pics/showgallery.php/cat/38). this one (http://www.teenboyaction.com/sitereview.php?id=101&back=/listsites.php?prijs=3) and this one (http://www.simpy.com/user/boyrev/tag/%28%28%22gay+boys%22%29+AND+%22boysreview.com%22%2 9+%22gay+sex%22). This affiliate (http://www.bglad.com/detail/22967/kim-s-teen-gay-gallery.html) describes them as "very young twinks" One would have to wonder why others promote a site as having young boys unless that's what they are, they think they are, or they want them to be?

When I Googled Kimprivate young boy (http://www.google.com/search?q=kimprivate+young+boy&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS253US253&aq=t) your site comes up 9th on the first page of results so be careful unless that's the kind of traffic you're intending to attract.

Did I say there are some REALLY HOT guys on there? Damn what a bummer. If they didn't have some of the younger ones on there I'd promote them.


The site that prompted the question was KimPrivate.com. As I said, while the hairless pubes thing is a little pervey, it seems OK in terms of my view of Bjorn's test of "do they look legal?"

[rawTOP]

This is all very theoretical but think about it like this. By advertising a site you are encouraging that behaviour and business model. Do you really want more sites where they make their models look younger than they are?

Playing Devil's advocate - shaved pubes also make dicks look larger, which makes the models look older.

There's a line that's crossed at some point. It's completely subjective as to when it's crossed, though there is a point where nearly everyone will agree it's been crossed. Do I mind people who produce content near the line? As a group - no, I don't have a particular problem with them. My parents would say everything I do porn-wise is evil and should be made illegal. Who am I to turn around and say something similar of someone else unless they're clear violators?


I would be very careful with that site, I know if from years back. It is owned by Kim himself from what I understand but problem is that Kim's site has been around for longer than he has been 18 (if I don't remember wrong), I hope that makes sense... He also features his "friends" who again could have been any age at the time the photos were taken. The site might have 2257 statment but it means absolutly nothing in this case.

Interesting... While I realize the law is black and white, my personal moral standard is based on the experience of model. As tangential examples, my boyfriend has sex for the first time at the age of 14 with a 30 year old guy (and a few weeks later with his twin brother). While it was technically illegal he was an active and willing participant. And to put it in perspective he is and was small thin and Asian - so there was no question what the brothers were into. He's fine with what happened, and I even met the brothers a few years back at Woody's in Toronto - seemed to be perfectly nice guys otherwise... By contrast I first had sex at the age of 21 and was first paid for sex a year later at the age of 22 (including a couple porn photoshoots). I wasn't ready to be paid for sex, even at 22, and it fucked me up a bit there for a while.

The question is does the model feel like they're in control of their own body or do they feel exploited? I guess what I'm saying is a teen taking pics and videos of his buddies sounds like it's (morally, not legally) probably not that bad.

It's why I think the CP laws will never be perfect. I wasn't ready for porn or escorting at 22, but others are ready much earlier.

Now as far as the legal aspect... Are you legally liable for links to sites with bad material or are you only liable for what shows up on your own site?


When I Googled Kimprivate young boy (http://www.google.com/search?q=kimprivate+young+boy) your site comes up 9th on the first page of results so be careful unless that's the kind of traffic you're intending to attract.

I'm there because you included a branded keyword. I'm careful not to use terms like "young boy". I'm pretty careful with the word 'boy' in general. Take a look at how the 'boy' is used on my site (http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Arawtop.com+boy)... I use it freely only when the person is clearly of age - like a leather daddy and his 30ish "boy"...

[Squirt]

155 results searching your site for the term young boy (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Arawtop.com+young+boy&btnG=Search)

I understand the way you say you're using it but the text is what's being indexed by Google, not the context.

So when Google indexes terms you have used to describe content like "young, slim little boy" or "bareback sex with young boys" or for instance here (http://www.rawtop.com/porn/2007-12/young-kids-getting-fucked-in-cartoons) where you say "So I thought I’d start with pics of young boys getting fucked, well cartoons, not really “pics”… Cartoons of young boys aren’t kiddie porn, are they?" and the name of the page is "young-kids-getting-fucked-in-cartoons" surfers will get results for those keywords showing your site and they'll come to you.

If your idea of young boys or, young kids getting fucked in cartoons, is different from the general public, then you'll be getting lots of disappointed surfers to your site and will be wasting good keyword rankings for traffic that will convert for you.

I hope you understand what I've said. I know it can be confusing and I hope I didn't muddle it up to much.


I'm there because you included a branded keyword. I'm careful not to use terms like "young boy". I'm pretty careful with the word 'boy' in general. Take a look at how the 'boy' is used on my site (http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Arawtop.com+boy)... I use it freely only when the person is clearly of age - like a leather daddy and his 30ish "boy"...

[Teddy]

I'd pass on them for two reasons:

1) There are enough problems to deal with without throwing into the mix the question about whether or not a site has legal models. The fact you asked indicates you're not entirely confident that all the guys are legal.

2) If I spend too much time debating about whether to do something, I usually don't do it. Nothing should be this complicated.

[rawTOP]

155 results searching your site for the term young boy (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Arawtop.com+young+boy&btnG=Search)

Actually if you just look on www (not my AEBN theater) and limit it to the /porn/ directory and then look for the exact phrase "young boy" it goes down to around 10 and most of those are from a while ago when I was just starting up and not really aware of CP issues, others are for things like "young boy-next-door" which is just an oversight that I didn't think about when I wrote the phrase.

I've had a total of 82 new visits in the last month based on organic traffic that used the term "young boy" somewhere in the search term. That's 82 out of 39,482 (one fifth of 1 percent). I am hardly targeting the term, so just give up...

[rawTOP]

I'd pass on them for two reasons:

1) There are enough problems to deal with without throwing into the mix the question about whether or not a site has legal models. The fact you asked indicates you're not entirely confident that all the guys are legal.

2) If I spend too much time debating about whether to do something, I usually don't do it. Nothing should be this complicated.

Actually, I'm fine with them. But my vetting them made me wonder whether I was considering all the factors that should be considered. The question was about the vetting process, not a particular site.

[gaydemon]

I totally agree with Teddy and more or less what I'm trying to say as well.

For me its about feeling good about what I do. And if that means a few bad judgements thats fine. I rather have that than work on the edge when it comes to this type of content.

My thing which others stay away from is Fetish. I love fetish and always tried to represent and advertise all types fetishes like watersports, BDSM and fisting etc. Personally I have no problem with them at all, but others might give them the same approach as I do to twinks.



I'd pass on them for two reasons:

1) There are enough problems to deal with without throwing into the mix the question about whether or not a site has legal models. The fact you asked indicates you're not entirely confident that all the guys are legal.

2) If I spend too much time debating about whether to do something, I usually don't do it. Nothing should be this complicated.

[Squirt]

You're misinterpreting where I'm coming from. I'm trying to help you target your traffic better via keywords because those keywords, and your page labeling, don't describe most of the content you're promoting accurately using the words young boy.

Most surfers don't search using quotes like us webmasters do, they would just type in the term young boy and see what comes up. Google indexes your site as having 155 pages with the term young boy, if you didn't know that before then now you know. You can keep doing it, or change, it's up to you and doesn't affect me in any way, I've just taken my time to research and explain to you what you're doing to help you target your traffic better.

Ok I'm taking my helping hat off and getting back to work. You don't get where I'm coming from or how the advice helps you so no need to go on about it. http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/nashlibrary/peace_symbol.gif


Actually if you just look on www (not my AEBN theater) and limit it to the /porn/ directory and then look for the exact phrase "young boy" it goes down to around 10 and most of those are from a while ago when I was just starting up and not really aware of CP issues, others are for things like "young boy-next-door" which is just an oversight that I didn't think about when I wrote the phrase.

I've had a total of 82 new visits in the last month based on organic traffic that used the term "young boy" somewhere in the search term. That's 82 out of 39,482 (one fifth of 1 percent). I am hardly targeting the term, so just give up...

[rawTOP]

I totally agree with Teddy and more or less what I'm trying to say as well.

For me its about feeling good about what I do. And if that means a few bad judgements thats fine. I rather have that than work on the edge when it comes to this type of content.

My thing which others stay away from is Fetish. I love fetish and always tried to represent and advertise all types fetishes like watersports, BDSM and fisting etc. Personally I have no problem with them at all, but others might give them the same approach as I do to twinks.

But what you're saying is it's a subjective standard and reasonable/respectable people will differ on where they draw the line. You're also saying you've basically pulled out everything that's teen focused - that's hardly something you can expect everyone else do to.

Would anyone say QueerClick is promoting CP? They have a lot of twink/teen sites in their blogroll on twinks.queerclick.com.

[rawTOP]

You're misinterpreting where I'm coming from. I'm trying to help you target your traffic better via keywords because those keywords, and your page labeling, don't describe most of the content you're promoting accurately using the words young boy.

There's 'history' on this between us and I'm still pretty sensitive to your comments on this particular subject. Sorry if I over-reacted it sorta sounded like you were saying I was trying to do something wrong.

And I definitely get SEO issues. But sites will always rank for unintended search terms. I have a mainstream client with medical/scientific images that ranked well for "penis image" for quite a while in the past. The image in question was a picture of a dissected penis - hardly what the searchers were looking for.

I don't mind ranking for dubious terms as long as I'm sending the traffic off to sites that are generally respectable.

This thread started because I wanted to avoid problems... I'm not nearly as conservative as Bjorn, but do want to avoid problems down the road.

[gaybucks_chip]

In this case, the site is processed by CCBill, and I have a lot of faith in their vetting process. Additionally, as someone who works with twinks all the time, I can say there's nobody on those sites that really makes me wonder... not like some of the eastern european sites. So I'd feel ok promoting this site as far as legality of content.

[gaydemon]

Absolutly, its down to where each person draws the line. I don't like teen sites and see most them as scum (yet I promote other twink sites). While they / others probably look at me promoting fetish sites as a kinky bastard.

And yes I've over the last couple of years pulled out most Teen sites. I continue to go through the sites I promote and will remove even more over time. Its something that is ongoing.

The only reason people promote a teen site is to make money, but that money can be made from promoting other sites instead.

Bottom line for is, I dropped teen sites and still make as much money as before.




But what you're saying is it's a subjective standard and reasonable/respectable people will differ on where they draw the line. You're also saying you've basically pulled out everything that's teen focused - that's hardly something you can expect everyone else do to.

Would anyone say QueerClick is promoting CP? They have a lot of twink/teen sites in their blogroll on twinks.queerclick.com.

[gaydemon]

I dont think we are talking about anyone knowingly promoting real CP, all I'm saying is what I personally do in terms of teen/twink sites.

To me what Queerclick is promoting shows bad judgement. There are many sites on that list I would not want to advertise. But a lot of people would not see it that way.

I no longer promote any GayGravy, Archive Cash or GayPay sites because of their involvment in dodgy billing practices. But I doubt anyone else has dropped them. Again its a personal choice and based on what I know, heard and think. Nothing I can prove, which is exactly the same as with these teen sites.




Would anyone say QueerClick is promoting CP? They have a lot of twink/teen sites in their blogroll on twinks.queerclick.com.

[dzinerbear]

I'm coming in late here, but I've got a couple of things to add.

I'd personally stay away from this site because in Canada the police only have to believe that a model is underage to prosecute you. So they arrest you, seize all your computer equipment and DVDs, and then, you're in court for the next ten years proving you did nothing wrong. Who needs the hassle for a $14.95 commission.

The other point I'd like to raise is this, and I guess there are several.

When dealing with non-US producers, do you even know what a legitimate, in this instance, Dutch birth certificate or passport looks like? It would be quite easy for any unscrupulous European producer to provide you with fake docs and you'd never know the difference.

In Poland it is legal to shoot nude guys who are 16 years of age of older so long as the model didn't benefit financially, i.e. was not paid. So here you could end up with content that was legally shot in Poland, but which isn't legal in many other jurisdictions. A quick job in Photoshop and the 16-year-old Polish guy becomes 18 years old, and you're none the wiser.

I just don't think it's worth the risk, not for me anyway. There are too many other sites to promote. You'll get away with promoting a lot of whacko stuff and no one will bother you, but all you need is for one nosy neighbour to start bleating on about kids on your computer and next thing you know 20/20 is on your doorstep and they're dragging the cops with them. People don't like it when you mess with kids whether they're legal or illegal. Who needs the grief?

And finally, I sure wished someone had protected me and allowed me to have my first sexual experience when I wanted to have it and with a man of my choosing. I think as older gay men we share some responsibility in helping younger guys grow into healthy gay men. I'm not sure that having 14-year-old guys having sex with 30-year-old men or shooting porn videos on their 18th birthday is necessarily "healthy." Why does the almighty dollar always need to come before everything else?

Anyway ... I'm blathering now.

Michael

[tigermom]

I'm coming in late here, but I've got a couple of things to add.

I'd personally stay away from this site because in Canada the police only have to believe that a model is underage to prosecute you. So they arrest you, seize all your computer equipment and DVDs, and then, you're in court for the next ten years proving you did nothing wrong. Who needs the hassle for a $14.95 commission.

The other point I'd like to raise is this, and I guess there are several.

When dealing with non-US producers, do you even know what a legitimate, in this instance, Dutch birth certificate or passport looks like? It would be quite easy for any unscrupulous European producer to provide you with fake docs and you'd never know the difference.

In Poland it is legal to shoot nude guys who are 16 years of age of older so long as the model didn't benefit financially, i.e. was not paid. So here you could end up with content that was legally shot in Poland, but which isn't legal in many other jurisdictions. A quick job in Photoshop and the 16-year-old Polish guy becomes 18 years old, and you're none the wiser.

I just don't think it's worth the risk, not for me anyway. There are too many other sites to promote. You'll get away with promoting a lot of whacko stuff and no one will bother you, but all you need is for one nosy neighbour to start bleating on about kids on your computer and next thing you know 20/20 is on your doorstep and they're dragging the cops with them. People don't like it when you mess with kids whether they're legal or illegal. Who needs the grief?

And finally, I sure wished someone had protected me and allowed me to have my first sexual experience when I wanted to have it and with a man of my choosing. I think as older gay men we share some responsibility in helping younger guys grow into healthy gay men. I'm not sure that having 14-year-old guys having sex with 30-year-old men or shooting porn videos on their 18th birthday is necessarily "healthy." Why does the almighty dollar always need to come before everything else?

Anyway ... I'm blathering now.

Michael

I'm with you all the way, Michael. Like many of you, I have links to twink sites by legitimate sponsors. On some of them, I am guessing you would find pretty young looking lads. That said, I have long ago ceased to actively promote the niche. The same for teens in straight porn.

While it may be legal, like Michael, I am not sure 18 should be the legal age for making porn. Yes, I know some 18 yo are very mature, but most of them are way way way too young to have sex on camera, IMHO. Actually, call me conservative, but if I had my way, they wouldn't be watching porn either. I mean it, I think porn is ok when you're sexually mature and have some perspective. Too early, and it taints your sexuality, IMO.

One more note, on the subject of shaved pubes. It's really fascinating, how the norm was established in straight porn that female performers should be shaved. If they're not shaved, then they become "niched" into hairy... There are so many sites that play on the piglets and candy for teen models too. It's all considered very legal and legitimate too (by most people).

[XXXWriterDude]

Not to get "off topic," but can you guys tell me what some of the best "twink sites" are? Not where they look 12, but young guy sites. Guys with 20-something college guys and stuff. What would you consider the cream of the crop to be? We're looking for those kinds of sites to review in Freshmen. Thanx.

[dzinerbear]

Twinkscape (http://www.twinkscape.com/home.asp) is produced by the same guys who bring us College Dudes 24/7, which is a fantastic site. I'm not into twinks, but the guys look pretty hot.

Michael