cautionary tale about model i.d. [Archive]

q1sites

07-24-2008, 03:26 PM

"Site A" recently hired a model thruogh a reputable agency. His age was given as 26, and this was confirmed on his i.d., a provisional driving licence, with a very good photo likeness and signature match. Site A went ahead and did 2 shoots with the model who had, shall we say, obvious assets, which site A was quick to show G rated preview pictures of in its coming attractions page.

Next, site A gets an email from the model to say that he used his older brother's i.d. and name, that he has a different forename, that he is really 17 and is very sorry for any trouble he caused, and is being done for fraud.

Site A takes another careful look at the id and the G rated face photos, thinks the photo on the i.d. is a very good likeness, also that close up, the model looks mid 20s not 17, but takes the photos off the site and writes to the model to say are you just saying this cos you have changed your mind about having your assets shown to the world? Model replies that he is indeed 17. Site A has no choice but to destroy all content involving model and hope that it can somehow recover the considerable costs (these were not solo sets).

Site A co-owner talks to tame police friend who says that fake driving licences are very common.

Site A concludes that it will insist on passports plus secondary form of i.d. in future. Site A also recalls conversation with another agency that insisted that birth certificates alone (name, no sig or photo) are acceptable model i.d.

SiteA wonders what other producers do.

Also, site A notices that site B published then withdrew content of same model. Unfortunately, site B's affiliates are still showing photos of same model. One still states something like "I like twinks which means 18-22 year olds, but there is something special about this 26 year old". Go figure. Site A has no intention of interfering with site B's affiliate scheme, but feels site B might like to warn its affiliates if it has withdrawn the content for the same reasons.

marcjacob

07-24-2008, 03:35 PM

So any of us affiliates could be using photos of a 17 year old and your going to use "site a" and "site b"... thanks.

basschick

07-24-2008, 03:37 PM

that's why so many sites require 2 forms of I.D. - a drivers license and passport, or a drivers license OR passport plus laminated photo school I.D. or something else.

don't know what country you're shooting in, but i haven't heard that good quality fake i.d. with a photo that REALLY looks like the model to be all that common. i also haven't seen a lot of 17 year olds that look exactly like their 26 year old brother...

q1sites

07-24-2008, 03:42 PM

I will PM anyone with the details of the model if they have posted content of a well hung 26 year old model from UK recently, but I am not going to name sites in public for very obvious reasons.

marcjacob

07-24-2008, 03:45 PM

Well most of what I do is brit porn now so yeah, I could fall into that cat.

If he worked for Blake Mason or UK Scally lads or British Bucks then PM me.

gaybucks_chip

07-24-2008, 11:19 PM

Patti gave me a suggestion long ago which is a really good one... always have the model sign the model release, and then compare the signature on the release to the signature on the drivers license. If there is an obvious mismatch, then you have a problem.

In the US, insisting on a passport will rule out a lot of models because here, at least, a lot of people don't have passports. School IDs are notoriously easy to fake, and birth certificates are also easily faked.

We do have models sign a statement that the ID they are presenting is their own, is not altered, forged, or otherwise in any way misrepresentative of who they are or their age, and that they acknowledge that we will take legal action for attempted forgery and fraud if they are found to have given us a fake ID. In a couple of cases (models that were planning to fly in), that language dissuaded a model who had previously claimed to be 18 that was actually underage. It's not bulletproof, but it does make clear that faking ID on a porn shoot is a MUCH bigger deal than faking an ID for buying beer or cigarettes.

basschick

07-25-2008, 04:12 AM

i came up with that when i was managing at a strip bar. a lot of guys tried to get in using their older brothers' i.d.s, and a guy 18 to 20 in a club here meant the liquor license was pulled and massive fines were levied. i used to have the guys i wasn't convinced about sign a piece of paper and compare and that generally took care of that.

camcruise

07-25-2008, 07:20 AM

Adam Mason

07-25-2008, 07:21 AM

Site B is BLAKEMASON.COM

We will get an email out to all affiliates today. The model's name is Boyd and his film was released on June 19th.

I have taken his film off the site as a precautionary measure, however, having filmed the guy myself and having personally done the ID checks, I simply don't believe he was 17. I mean, I don't know of any 17 year old with a beard... his body was well developed and he didn't have a twinky look about him... more a shaggy-haired surfer dude look.

And his personality and nature matched 26 and not 17 too!

marcjacob

07-25-2008, 08:19 AM

Adam can I ask how long this has been going on for? When did you recieve notice that their may be an issue and when did you remove his content from Blake Mason?

Adam Mason

07-25-2008, 08:35 AM

Adam can I ask how long this has been going on for? When did you recieve notice that their may be an issue and when did you remove his content from Blake Mason?

I heard about it on Wednesday and took down the film yesterday. Sorry for not letting all affiliates know about it sooner. I, like many others that have met and worked with the model are certain that he is in fact 26 and that something very odd it going on. I took the film down purely as a precaution and will probably re-release it if nothing concrete comes back from the police.

marcjacob

07-25-2008, 08:39 AM

I heard about it on Wednesday and took down the film yesterday. Sorry for not letting all affiliates know about it sooner. I, like many others that have met and worked with the model are certain that he is in fact 26 and that something very odd it going on. I took the film down purely as a precaution and will probably re-release it if nothing concrete comes back from the police.

Fair enough, I dont believe he is 17 either. All sounds like someone now regrets signing those model releases to me...

gaybucks_chip

07-25-2008, 01:26 PM

More and more, kids are getting savvy about being able to pull this shit.

I've seen several cases where some wanna-be celebrity (most recently the Myspace non-celebrity Matthew Lush aka Gaygod, and before that, the "Leave Britney Alone" dude) had self-made webcam j/o videos that got out and both people claimed that they were underage (when they clearly were not based on all evidence) when the videos were made.

No ISP is going to argue with that point, and so they get what they want, which is to have their embarrassing shit pulled off the net. Frankly I think it's really shady to pull crap like that.

I'd be inclined, once you verify the guy's age, to proactively upload the entire video to all the tube sites, put it on Bittorrent, and distribute it as widely as you possibly can. It will serve the dual purpose of promoting your site and getting the message across that lying to you to get a clip taken down will not only have the opposite effect, but result in more visibility.

Then I would probably try to pursue criminal charges. It's one thing for some dude who's 18 to try to do that, quite another for someone who's 26. It's essentially attempted extortion.

Now... if the guy were to come to you, hat in hand, and say "I've made a really terrible, horrible mistake, I don't know what I was thinking, and I wonder if there's any possible way you could help me out by taking down the content"... well, that would be a completely different story.

I just have zero tolerance for people who lie, cheat, and attempt to defraud.

q1sites

07-25-2008, 02:30 PM

Site B is BLAKEMASON.COM
I don't know of any 17 year old with a beard... his body was well developed and he didn't have a twinky look about him... more a shaggy-haired surfer dude look.And his personality and nature matched 26 and not 17 too!

This means nothing. How many 26 year olds cum twice in a solo? he's the only model on your site to do this. But also means nothing.

...I would probably try to pursue criminal charges. It's one thing for some dude who's 18 to try to do that, quite another for someone who's 26. It's essentially attempted extortion.

Now... if the guy were to come to you, hat in hand, and say "I've made a really terrible, horrible mistake, I don't know what I was thinking, and I wonder if there's any possible way you could help me out by taking down the content"... well, that would be a completely different story.

Agree its obtaining money falsely whether he's 26. or 17. But while there's doubt about his age we'd be v reluctant to use the content...and a lack of a police enquiry would not be enough to convince us of anything. He has agreed to pay back the money owed, but we have no idea of his real identity so it would be difficult to enforce. No record of a birth registered in the name that appears on his i.d, and I think his whole identity is fake.

We have removed content before on request for genuine reasons, and I know Adam has too.

i haven't heard that good quality fake i.d. with a photo that REALLY looks like the model to be all that common. i also haven't seen a lot of 17 year olds that look exactly like their 26 year old brother...

Sadly they are easily available -
http://www.fakeidentification.co.uk/cards.php
I am pretty sure the actual photo on the i.d. is actually him, and that the brother story is false. But why tell us that its his brother's i.d.? He could pressumably have gone on to do more shoots.

q1sites

07-25-2008, 03:38 PM

I have just heard this from the agency -
"When I spoke to the police, I impressed upon them the importance of us knowing if he was 17 or not as that by using photos of a 17yo sites would be breaking the law, and I wanted to avoid that. Their answer was that as long as we were 100% that the ID was genuine, and that we believed that the person in question was XXXXXXX then we were fine. They also clarified that they had spoken to XXXXXXX and that they could confirm he is 26."

Its all too easy to cause a lot of trouble, and we'll have a stricter i.d policy in future

basschick

07-25-2008, 03:44 PM

i'd be interested to know if these i.d.s could pass muster with someone who really knows i.d. a site like that would be SO illegal in the u.s.

anyone got any feedback on that?

Sadly they are easily available -
http://www.fakeidentification.co.uk/cards.php
I am pretty sure the actual photo on the i.d. is actually him, and that the brother story is false. But why tell us that its his brother's i.d.? He could pressumably have gone on to do more shoots.

abostonboy

07-25-2008, 06:46 PM

They also clarified that they had spoken to XXXXXXX and that they could confirm he is 26."

Its all too easy to cause a lot of trouble, and we'll have a stricter i.d policy in future

So, what exactly are you saying. Please enlighten me.

marcjacob

07-26-2008, 09:17 AM

i'd be interested to know if these i.d.s could pass muster with someone who really knows i.d. a site like that would be SO illegal in the u.s.

anyone got any feedback on that?

Well I had heard that the government want to ban them. The driving and provisional drivers license do look similar but my provisional license is different enough to make you look twice if your used to seeing them. They have got ALOT more real looking in recent years. I can imagine people would get fooled by it especially bar staff who are mega busy on a saturday night, and working in a dark nightclub or bar.

tombarr

07-29-2008, 12:10 PM

camcruise

07-31-2008, 08:41 AM

So what was the outcome of all this??
If the police said he was 26 then your all in the clear. right.
You can put the stuff up again, Yes??

MonstahMikey

07-31-2008, 10:09 AM

As the agency involved, and the person who has been speaking to the police, I thought it was best to relay what we have been told so far.

The police have confirmed that the person to who the ID relates is in fact 26. They have spoken to him and that is 100% confirmed. The ID is genuine, its is not fake or forged, and it belongs to a real person.

What now needs to be established is if the person on the ID is the same person that was photoed, thats harder to prove. The police are happy that if the sites in question genuinely believe that the model who turned up is the same person on the ID then they are fine, and should later down the line it be proved that it was a different person, then the model would be liable for prosecution and NOT the sites.

I also note some comments with regard to stricter ID policies being necessary.

QUESTION: If said model had used his brothers ID and fooled everyone, then how would having additional ID have helped ? Surely he could also have then used his brothers passport and also gotten away with that ?

I still firmly believe that the model is the person on the ID - he is 26 and he is just trying to get his photos removed from the net.

marcjacob

07-31-2008, 10:29 AM

You can prove this but its not easy. I think experts measure point to point on peoples faces, like how far the eyes are apart etc etc but you probably have to adjust the measurements as the two photo will be taken at different distances.

marcjacob

07-31-2008, 10:32 AM

You know if the police wanted to, they could send both photos off to the lab and get this done. Maybe they dont think its that serious.

gaybucks_chip

07-31-2008, 11:00 AM

It's amazing to me that the police there will let the producer off the hook if the model appears to have defrauded the producer. In the US, under 2257, the producer is liable regardless.

And honestly, that is probably the better policy, since letting the producer off would open the door to shady producers colluding with underage models to use an older brother's ID or something.

In this case... as far as the person in the ID being the person photographed, is there any evidence to show that it isn't? If the person who was photographed has no ID saying he was 17, then it would seem that the argument simply goes away, but of course I don't know the ins and outs of the situation.

MonstahMikey

07-31-2008, 11:02 AM

The police didnt seem at all fussed when i spoke to them. I even rang back and spoke to the local station that went out to see the model, and impressed upon them the importance of knowing models age etc, and the answer I got back was "we went to see him, and we can confirm he is 26" - when I mentioned about him claiming to be the brother etc etc, the answer I got was as I put before - "if you are happy that Boyd Scott is XXX then its fine"

My inclination would be to say that Boyd is 26, leave the content on the sites. Both sites have ID to prove he is 26, and have signatures that match - in the event that it turns out the model is in fact 17 then the police will just advise to remove the content and ask the sites if they wish to prosecute.

basschick

07-31-2008, 11:29 AM

i wonder if the guy even has a younger brother. if not, that would certainly simplify things.

gaybucks_chip

07-31-2008, 12:21 PM

As I told Lloyd when I was talking to him about this... my inclination, simply because the model was such a turd about things and caused so many headaches, would be to distribute that content as widely and as freely as possible... make banners with the guy, put the entire scene all over Bittorrent and the tube sites, etc.

Perhaps that's a little bit vengeful, but that sort of shady shit annoys the heck out of me. If the guy decides it's a bad idea, then say that and see if the content producer will help you out. But pulling this sort of crap... not OK.

DonMike

07-31-2008, 05:48 PM

i wonder if the guy even has a younger brother. if not, that would certainly simplify things.

Yeah, tell him to prove it by having them both show up at your office, then decide for yourself.

q1sites

08-01-2008, 09:44 AM

marcjacob

08-01-2008, 09:53 AM

I can imagine what the Officer said to be true. In England with most things if you can show due dilligance, they wont persecute you for making a mistake. The Police are too busy catching real CP to worry about a totally innocent mistake by a company who clearly tries to stay the right of the law.. and that is as it should be imo.

abostonboy

08-01-2008, 10:02 AM

We have asked to see his real i.d to say he is 17 - he says he will dig it out of the attic. We'll see. Meanwhile, the verbal 3rd party report of an unnamed policeman saying "youre ok if you thought his i.d. was real" is not going to stand up if we were prosecuted for having underage models.

I guess every model we have ever used could get in touch tomorrow and say that they used fake i.d., I was only 17 in the shoot. We'd have some difficult decissions. Would we pull it all down and try and prosecute them all for fraud? Or put the onus them to prove it and risk trouble with the law / bad press? We 'd ask a lawyer, and I think that's what we should do now. Anyone want to share the costs?

Well, I would HOPE in the future before you make a post in public about your concerns that you would contact the other sites before you post and MAYBE ask them what are they doing about the situation.

While we were in the process of determining what affiliates may have used the content in question and preparing to notify them, I was somewhat concerned that you decided to post this in public.

The model in question on this issue did not have a promo set mailed out to all affiliates. At most, 30 affiliates had access to the members area, and thus access to his photos. We had every intention of notifying them of the situation immediately. In fact, when you posted this, we were in the process of doing this.

Since, MANY have asked what our policy is in matters like this, it is simple -

We will notify affiliates and ask them to remove the content. BlakeMason will NEVER put an affiliate at risk for questionable content. EVER.

In many ways, your post made BlakeMason look like a bunch of bad guys that didn't care about affiliates. That is just simply not true. We took this matter very seriously and was in the process of acting accordingly.

abostonboy

08-01-2008, 10:04 AM

I guess every model we have ever used could get in touch tomorrow and say that they used fake i.d., I was only 17 in the shoot. We'd have some difficult decissions.

Welcome to the world of filming gay porn. Are you new to this business?

q1sites

08-01-2008, 11:02 AM

In many ways, your post made BlakeMason look like a bunch of bad guys that didn't care about affiliates. That is just simply not true. We took this matter very seriously and was in the process of acting accordingly.

Site A is ours, and this is what most of the post was about. The reference to another site, B, was a small part of the post, all of which was drawing attention to important industry issues. Raising the point about affiliate content was to illustrate the fact that if producers get these things wrong (models age) then secondary producers can get into potential trouble by replicating the content. It was also an attempt to raise an ironic smile by the affiliate's text (sick humour on a serious matter). BM is a major site, but its not all about you, so please don't take it personally.

Adam chose to name Blakemason. Had I wanted to discredit your (very good) site I'd have named it. Or taken issue with the date Adam said the content was removed from BM. Our sites are niche sites which do not compete with BM. In the past BM has made claims that models which have already appeared on our sites are appearing on BM as a debut, but that is long ago. Despite this we continue to regularly reccomended our models apply to BM for work when we can give them no more, BM are anything but "Bad guys" and your ethics and charity donations are well known, as is your site's stance on safer sex, which we greatly respect. However my emails to Adam are not recieved or not replied to, and the recent IMs I got from you were not the friendliest, so communication between us is not the easiest. I hope this will change. Have a happy birthday.

marcjacob

08-01-2008, 11:06 AM

have asked what our policy is in matters like this, it is simple -

Not being funny Lloyd but I still havent had an email warning me. Also you spoke to me the day after Adam found out, and didnt mention it.

I just wonder if q1 hadnt posted this, would you have said?

abostonboy

08-01-2008, 11:34 AM

Not being funny Lloyd but I still havent had an email warning me. Also you spoke to me the day after Adam found out, and didnt mention it.

I just wonder if q1 hadnt posted this, would you have said?

You are right.

The email address I have on file - emailaddress bounces. PM me the new email address and I will update your information.

Yes, we would have said it. That was my point in posting. However, if the email address is not valid, there is not a whole lot I can do. When I talked to you, I had no idea if the email address had bounced or not.

Best,
lloyd

Adam Mason

08-01-2008, 11:49 AM

I am easy to get hold of... providing your email gets through my spam filter! You can always PM on here if there's an issue you need to raise.

Also, sometimes I can only go by what models tell me... I don't keep a close eye on other UK sites.

Marcjacob - maybe your spam filter is also working overtime ;-)

Meanwhile, I have taken the decision to show Boyd's film... it's back on the site.

MonstahMikey

08-01-2008, 12:09 PM

Meanwhile, the verbal 3rd party report of an unnamed policeman saying "youre ok if you thought his i.d. was real" is not going to stand up if we were prosecuted for having underage models.

With regard to this, there was a case last year where a client used a model who was 17 who had fake ID, and then a few weeks after the shoot the model approached the site and admitted he was 17 and his ID was fake.

The police were contacted, and were nothing but supportive towards the site, they even asked the site if they wished to prosecute the model.

Based on this I would say it is highly unlikely that a site would be prosecuted, if they have followed all the necessary checks and precautions.

I have the incident number logged should any of the sites in question need it as evidence that the police have been contacted.