What's it called when an affiliate...

[Squirt]

What's it called when an affiliate uses your domain name as a keyword for adsense/adwords and comes up next to your site as a paid link, using their affiliate code as a link to your site?

Is there a name for it?

[rawTOP]

Don't think I've ever heard of a name for it. The issue seems to be whether the program is buying ads or not. If you're not buying ads then the affiliate buying them is a good thing. If you are buying ads then he's raising the price you bid on your own branded keywords, which is a bad thing. It can all be handled pretty easily with a change to your terms of service and an e-mail or two.

[gaydemon]

Don't think so, but its a big problem. I know several sponsors have issues with it. Personally I would get rid of them as an affiliate. They shouldnt compete for your domain.. but I guess it depends on how your Terms for Affiliates look.

[abostonboy]

You should be buying Adwords for your own domain name. If an affiliate is marketing YOUR site w/ the keywords, I would ask the affiliate to stop. If they are marketing another site there is not much you can do, even if you have a tm.

[fetishlad]

I would call that "theft"

[Squirt]

Thanks for the input guys. The affiliate has taken our domain name off their campaigns.

I wish their was a widely used term for this, it was difficult to explain exactly what I needed him to do.

I can see why some affiliates do it and I can see why some sponsors don't approve of it.

[tigermom]

I know many programs in mainstream that clearly forbid bidding on their name and some even forbid any bidding/PPC promotion for their products.

[Bec]

So some guy is paying for adwords, to promote your site, out of his own pocket (% of the sales he gets) ... umm, how is this a bad thing?

[Gaystoryman]

So some guy is paying for adwords, to promote your site, out of his own pocket (% of the sales he gets) ... umm, how is this a bad thing?

You know, I was wondering that too, I mean it is his money being spent, to promote you, so why is it a problem? If you aren't willing to do it, surely it should be rather a nice thing to have, not a negative.

unless there are some downsides that don't appear obvious to an old blond geezer like me whistle

[Squirt]

I would call that "theft"

I've heard some sponsors refer to the practice the same as you do.

I personally wouldn't go that far at all, but I can understand how they come to that conclusion. I can also see why some affiliates might venture to think it's ok.

[rawTOP]

You know, I was wondering that too, I mean it is his money being spent, to promote you, so why is it a problem? If you aren't willing to do it, surely it should be rather a nice thing to have, not a negative.

unless there are some downsides that don't appear obvious to an old blond geezer like me whistle

ALL the programs I've seen complain about it actively bid on their own branded keywords. In that case the affiliate is competing with them and raising the price they have to pay for their own keywords and that's bad. Of course, it's better than a competitor bidding for their branded keywords, but that doesn't seem to happen much (which is an opportunity lost, IMHO).

So the people who say "theft" ad the like are thinking in those terms. But I've never heard a cogent argument against an affiliate spending their own money to buy adwords when the program isn't doing it. Filling the marketing holes of the program is the job of an affiliate. Programs can't do it all themselves and if they chose not do do adwords, then it should be fair game for affiliates since studies have shown that people do better in organic traffic if they also buy adwords - just one of those mysterious things that happens to be true. I don't think you can find an empirical study that would say that an affiliate buying adwords will reduce the organic traffic you're already getting.

[fetishlad]

I've heard some sponsors refer to the practice the same as you do. I personally wouldn't go that far at all, but I can understand how they come to that conclusion. I can also see why some affiliates might venture to think it's ok.

fuck yeah ... they use your name and brand - something you thought of and invested a lot of time and money to develop and they piggy ride on that success using ways you might have not thought of before because it never came up to use this particular way to promote yourself .... if it is not thieft it is certainly fraud .... imagine someone doingthis to the coca cola company .... anyone here who think anyone who would get away with that? I don't think so .... no apologies! ever!!!

[Squirt]

fuck yeah ... they use your name and brand - something you thought of and invested a lot of time and money to develop and they piggy ride on that success using ways you might have not thought of before because it never came up to use this particular way to promote yourself .... if it is not theft it is certainly fraud .... imagine someone doingthis to the coca cola company .... anyone here who think anyone who would get away with that? I don't think so .... no apologies! ever!!!

I completely understand where you're coming from.

In instances of these minority affiliates doing nothing other then using your domain name for ad-sense / ad-word keywords, and paying for that placement, it can be argued that they are simply gambling whether someone will click on your #1 placement on the left, or their ad-word placement on the right, to subscribe. Nothing more, nothing less.

Remember there are affiliates/programs out there that get sales/commission by cookie stuffing, spamming, cross sales, mistyped domains, etc. and have absolutely no issue with it. They will strongly defend "their right" to make money by any means possible, no boundaries. It's up to each party to decide what their boundaries are.

[basschick]

if a program wasn't promoting their own site on adwords, seems to me having an affiliate do it would be a plus, not theft.

[Squirt]

if a program wasn't promoting their own site on adwords, seems to me having an affiliate do it would be a plus, not theft.

For an affiliate that would be a plus, talk about easy $$$$$ lol

Do you promote programs using their domain name as adword keywords?

[BBD]

Its called TM bidding

[TropixxxMichael]

if a program wasn't promoting their own site on adwords, seems to me having an affiliate do it would be a plus, not theft.

Yeah, but if someone was searching for you using your trade name, then it would probably come up rather high in the organic listings. To jump ahead of that by using adwords would be wrong in my opinion.

Although I do not currently prohibit it in my terms, I suppose I will give it some thought and might do so.

[basschick]

no, i never bothered. seemed to me working the niches is the way to go when it comes to keywords, but i know a few program owners who apprciate it.


For an affiliate that would be a plus, talk about easy $$$$$ lol

Do you promote programs using their domain name as adword keywords?

wouldn't it depend on what was on the page vs what was only adwords keywords? i don't know, and it doesn't matter to me since i'm not planning to do it - just wondering.


Yeah, but if someone was searching for you using your trade name, then it would probably come up rather high in the organic listings. To jump ahead of that by using adwords would be wrong in my opinion.

Although I do not currently prohibit it in my terms, I suppose I will give it some thought and might do so.

[fetishlad]

if a program wasn't promoting their own site on adwords, seems to me having an affiliate do it would be a plus, not theft.

So in other words - now some dodgy affiliates are "forcing" programs to go and spend money on adwords and other types of campaigns to either counter the affiliates' actions or pre-empt them ...

And why is is called theft when a company does this to coca cola, google, disney or any other big brand? But not now?

I can't believe people actually think it is a good thing, blows my mind ... but then I have seen what some programs and some affiliates do to make money in this industry ... so I am not too surprised really

[rawTOP]

For an affiliate that would be a plus, talk about easy $$$$$ lol

Do you promote programs using their domain name as adword keywords?

Actually, no... Every program I've heard talk about it has said that affiliate traffic is more profitable than AdWords traffic. That means the affiliate is likely to lose money, not make it doing AdWords. In other words, they'll spend more money on AdWords than they will make in commission. The exception might be PPS programs, but in most cases the affiliate will lose money or have a very slim profit margin.

For example, let's say they bid 10 cents and your program converts an average of 1:400. That means the affiliate had to put out $40 for sale. More likely they bid 5 cents and it converts 1:600 (since it's not as good as regular affiliate traffic), so they're putting out $30 to get a sale.

Obviously, there's no "theft" going on here. Quite the opposite - in many cases it's in the program's best interest to let the affiliates be the one losing money. They're getting expensive AdWords traffic at the cheaper affiliate traffic price.

Now the domain issue is where it gets interesting. Let's say the pay site is SexyHunks.com. To get SexyHunks.com to show as the domain in Adwords they'd have to send the traffic to that particular domain - say the tour page. If you're using CCBill, Epoch that bounce off their own site then that's not an option. That's where you start seeing SexyHunks.eu and the like pop up. I'll just leave it at the domain issue is separate from the AdWords issue, and there are cases where it it clearly wrong.

Now they could also send the traffic to their site and show say a bunch of blog posts about SexyHunks.com. Then it's harder to quantify whether they're losing money since they could get distracted and find some other sponsor site and buy that. But the numbers are against the affiliate in that case since you've just put the customer one more step away from the sale.


So in other words - now some dodgy affiliates are "forcing" programs to go and spend money on adwords and other types of campaigns to either counter the affiliates' actions or pre-empt them ...

And why is is called theft when a company does this to coca cola, google, disney or any other big brand? But not now?

I can't believe people actually think it is a good thing, blows my mind ... but then I have seen what some programs and some affiliates do to make money in this industry ... so I am not too surprised really

Quite the contrary. You're not forced to spend money on AdWords at all. Let the affiliates be the ones to lose money on it. Remember, they're ads aren't going to do well unless they give the person what they expect. So their objective is to get the traffic to your site as quickly as possible. There's no way in which that's bad for you.

Bidding on branded keywords is completely allowed by Google. There's a process you can go through if you don't want your terms bid on. You have to register a trademark and then tell Google about the trademark. Even then people are allowed to do comparison ads, so Pepsi could do one like "Which do people like better - Coke or Pepsi" - that's covered by free speech.

Seriously, the only way in which this is bad for the program is if the program is bidding on the terms themselves. Please be specific in why you think it's bad - 'cause you're argument isn't backed up with any facts as best I can see. The studies all say that the presence of AdWords ads in the Google SERPs drives more traffic to the organic listings. So the sponsor is gaining organic traffic, not losing it. This is a win-win for the sponsor in most cases.

[abostonboy]

Bidding on branded keywords is completely allowed by Google. There's a process you can go through if you don't want your terms bid on. You have to register a trademark and then tell Google about the trademark. Even then people are allowed to do comparison ads, so Pepsi could do one like "Which do people like better - Coke or Pepsi" - that's covered by free speech.


Actually, this is not entirely true. Google in the US does not arbitrate disputes regarding tm's.

Google "ibm". :)

[abostonboy]

Of course, it's better than a competitor bidding for their branded keywords, but that doesn't seem to happen much (which is an opportunity lost, IMHO).



This happens ALL the time, even if the program is bidding on the keywords themselves.

Google -

sean cody
broke straight boys
corbin fisher

etc...

[abostonboy]

Yeah, but if someone was searching for you using your trade name, then it would probably come up rather high in the organic listings. To jump ahead of that by using adwords would be wrong in my opinion.


You can increase your sales by about 30% by bidding on your own domain name. Any program should be bidding on their own domain name. You also have more control over what appears in the listing as well. Google "ae" as an example to see what I mean.

Paid listing:
American Eagle Outfitters
www.ae.com/sale Buy A Pair of Jeans, Get 50% Off A Hoodie or Graphic T! Ends 11/3.

Organic listing:
American Eagle Outfitters
Shop ae.com for men's and women's clothes, shoes, and more. All styles are available in additional sizes only at ae.com.

[rawTOP]

Actually, this is not entirely true. Google in the US does not arbitrate disputes regarding tm's.

I've been contacted on a number of occasions 'cause a mainstream AdWords ad I have contains the word "Mac". Each time they suspend the ad and then I have to go back and argue with them that the way I'm using it is allowed. Each time I win, but it's a hassle. So they do monitor and arbitrate and trademark holders just have to get on their list.

[Maryflixxx]

I managed the Maleflixxx B2B programs for years and I always encouraged my affiliates to go into Adwords for our brand names.

They were able to help me build mindshare and they shared the risk that is always associated with a large, international campaign.

I allowed affiliates to use both my domain and my URL in their ads, and if an Affiliate was getting better placement than me, I simply took my ad down. Saved me a lot of money in the long run - since they were running some words/placement combinations that would have cost me nearly $10k a month to own.

So simply banning it or calling it "theft" is overstating - its only theft if they are pointing that traffic to another site.

Consider the cost and benefit of you doing it vs them doing it. It's definitely not a bad thing.

[abostonboy]

I've been contacted on a number of occasions 'cause a mainstream AdWords ad I have contains the word "Mac". Each time they suspend the ad and then I have to go back and argue with them that the way I'm using it is allowed. Each time I win, but it's a hassle. So they do monitor and arbitrate and trademark holders just have to get on their list.

I am sure they have a list with some companies on it. In the US they monitor "ad text" with tm names, but do not arbitrate bidding on "keywords" with tm names. Maybe if you spend $500,000 a month w/ Google and have a tm they will take care of you.


http://adwords.google.com/support/aw/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=6118

Check the regions that they monitor both "ad text" and "keywords". The US is not there...

[ChadKnowsLaw]

So some guy is paying for adwords, to promote your site, out of his own pocket (% of the sales he gets) ... umm, how is this a bad thing?

This is a bad thing because it is stealing sales.

Yes, the affiliate is paying for advertisement BUT the affiliate is getting 50% of sales that should have gone directly to the program. Just because an affiliate is paying for advertising does not diminish the fact that they are taking a dollar of your own sales, giving you 50 cents and telling you to be grateful.

[rawTOP]

This is a bad thing because it is stealing sales.

Yes, the affiliate is paying for advertisement BUT the affiliate is getting 50% of sales that should have gone directly to the program. Just because an affiliate is paying for advertising does not diminish the fact that they are taking a dollar of your own sales, giving you 50 cents and telling you to be grateful.

Can we have programs chime in with which they think is cheaper - AdSense traffic or affiliate traffic? If it's affiliate traffic then the program makes more money paying 50% to the affiliate and letting the affiliate lose money buying AdSense ads.

There are reasons for wanting to control the message on AdSense, but calling it "stealing" just isn't supported with any numbers I've heard presented... At least not for most rev share programs.

[ChadKnowsLaw]

If an affiliate brings sales using your trademark (it does not have to be registered to be a trademark BTW) without your permission that is stealing.

[rawTOP]

If an affiliate brings sales using your trademark (it does not have to be registered to be a trademark BTW) without your permission that is stealing.

You're arguing a completely different point. Of course if a program says "don't do AdSense for our sites" it's prohibited. We ALL accept that. But that's not the case with many programs - and others like Mary's encourage affiliates to bid on AdSense, and others just don't have their act together enough to have an opinion.

I think this discussion is about what really makes the most sense for the program. When affiliates here the reasons, it's easier to accept the program's decision. So far I've heard that programs like to coordinate the marketing message from day to day and week to week. I can respect that completely. But it's up in the air which makes more financial sense for the program. And if you say it's "stealing" when the affiliate is likely to lose money on it... well, it just comes off sounding wrong-headed and a bit like Gollum saying "My Precious" - where it's a completely emotional response rather than a financially sound business decision.

[fetishlad]

This is a bad thing because it is stealing sales.

Yes, the affiliate is paying for advertisement BUT the affiliate is getting 50% of sales that should have gone directly to the program. Just because an affiliate is paying for advertising does not diminish the fact that they are taking a dollar of your own sales, giving you 50 cents and telling you to be grateful.

Thank you Chad!

[fetishlad]

If an affiliate brings sales using your trademark (it does not have to be registered to be a trademark BTW) without your permission that is stealing.

Thank you Chad!

[ChadKnowsLaw]

If you choose to let affiliates use your trademarks in adwords purchases that is your choice and perfectly legal. However, if the affiliate does it without your express permission it is stealing.

If I have an apple cart and someone comes up and says "Can I have that apple?" and let them it is OK. If someone takes an apple off the cart without my knowledge, even if I have let 100 other people take apples off my cart, it is stealing.

Of course, if I have been letting people take apples off my cart I should say "Stop that!" and not try to push my luck with those that previously took my apples. The person that takes my apples after I have explicitly told them to stop should be torn apart by wild dogs.

[fetishlad]

Chad - you are the voice of reason and I hope you show people a little bit about ethics and morals ....

[ChadKnowsLaw]

Chad - you are the voice of reason and I hope you show people a little bit about ethics and morals ....

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[rawTOP]

If I have an apple cart and someone comes up and says "Can I have that apple?" and let them it is OK. If someone takes an apple off the cart without my knowledge, even if I have let 100 other people take apples off my cart, it is stealing.

The affiliate already has entered into a contract to sell your apples. It's not stealing if they take one and go sell it. Now, if you say, you can sell the apples everywhere except in Central Park and they sell in Central Park, then you have a problem, but it's not a theft problem - it's a territory problem.

Now, if the industry standard is to not restrict where the affiliate can sell apples, and you want to restrict where they can sell apples, then you should deal with them gently at first to make sure it wasn't just an innocent mistake. Better yet - put in bold print on the signup form so they're less likely to make the mistake in the first place.

Honestly, most affiliates really aren't out to get you. They're your business partners. I know there are bad ones out there, but they're doing far worse things than selling via AdSense for crazy low margins.

[abostonboy]

I know there are bad ones out there, but they're doing far worse things than selling via AdSense for crazy low margins.

Buying a site's domain name as keywords in an adwords campaign and marketing the site is NOT a low margin. In fact, I could easily make $50,000+ a year just on the top 5-10 gay porn sites based on Alexa doing that with little or no work.

[rawTOP]

Buying a site's domain name as keywords in an adwords campaign and marketing the site is NOT a low margin. In fact, I could easily make $50,000+ a year just on the top 5-10 gay porn sites based on Alexa doing that with little or no work.

I think the context of the discussion is the average rev-share site. I'm the first to say the economics of it are different for well-converting pay-per-sale programs. I even said as much earlier. The really big boys have different issues than most sites.

[Craig]

...

[rawTOP]

...

I think Titan needs to cancel Target's affiliate account for doing that! lol

[Bec]

I was just at Target, and I can declare, with absolute certainty ... the Titan Men were no where to be found ... can we sue em for false advertising?

[abostonboy]

I think the context of the discussion is the average rev-share site. I'm the first to say the economics of it are different for well-converting pay-per-sale programs. I even said as much earlier. The really big boys have different issues than most sites.

Even on rev share with the well branded sites I could easily make that money. It would just take a little longer. That traffic rebills.

If one went to Alexa and took the top 50 gay sites and bought their names as keywords, that affiliate would be making over $100,000 a year in profit. Probably a lot more. Way more actually.

I have seen affiliates make $4k a month on a rev share program just by buying "site name" as the keywords and placing before the site in Google's listings.

[Squirt]

And if you say it's "stealing" when the affiliate is likely to lose money on it...

It's insulting when you put stuff like this out there which is totally false and based on your fiction, not real world experience.


Buying a site's domain name as keywords in an adwords campaign and marketing the site is NOT a low margin. In fact, I could easily make $50,000+ a year just on the top 5-10 gay porn sites based on Alexa doing that with little or no work.

I can verify that you're absolutely correct on your numbers here. My initial post in creating this thread was in regards to a single affiliate promoting a site solely using the domain name in adsense/adwords and making over $14k a year, on one site.

After calculating their total hits and conversion ratios then cross referencing that information with the cost per click for the domain name with adsense/adwords I can tell you they spend pennies on the dollar and rake in healthy profits for the investment... but you already know that ;)

I have no problem with people making money and, if a program doesn't have issue with it, I think this would be an easy way for affiliates to bring in some cash.

[Squirt]

Its called TM bidding


I like that term BBD thanks for the info :cool:

[ChadKnowsLaw]

The affiliate already has entered into a contract to sell your apples. It's not stealing if they take one and go sell it. Now, if you say, you can sell the apples everywhere except in Central Park and they sell in Central Park, then you have a problem, but it's not a theft problem - it's a territory problem.

Now, if the industry standard is to not restrict where the affiliate can sell apples, and you want to restrict where they can sell apples, then you should deal with them gently at first to make sure it wasn't just an innocent mistake. Better yet - put in bold print on the signup form so they're less likely to make the mistake in the first place.

Honestly, most affiliates really aren't out to get you. They're your business partners. I know there are bad ones out there, but they're doing far worse things than selling via AdSense for crazy low margins.


OK, my example was not spot on.

If I have a website and market that website, the name of the website develops trademark rights whether I register that trademark or not. That trademark is my property.

If an affiliate buys my trademark name for adwords or similar program without my permission or knowledge it is stealing.

[rawTOP]

It's insulting when you put stuff like this out there which is totally false and based on your fiction, not real world experience.

Oh pleeese... Insulting? I'm considered to have "quality traffic" and sites I promote average about 1:400. At 5 cents per click (the minimum AdSense bid) that means putting out $20/sale. I average under $25/sale, so that means the people doing it are making about $5/sale.

I've said several times that the top sites with great conversion ratios are different, but people are talking generalities here. And $5/sale is a 25% profit margin and it's not hard to lose money in a scenario where you put out $20 to make $5.

Insulting is completely the wrong word. Talk facts and numbers - and stop making it so personal, 'cause it's not. It's business for god's sake.


OK, my example was not spot on.

If I have a website and market that website, the name of the website develops trademark rights whether I register that trademark or not. That trademark is my property.

If an affiliate buys my trademark name for adwords or similar program without my permission or knowledge it is stealing.

I use the name of my sponsor's sites all the time to direct traffic to them. Am I supposed to stop? I'm really not seeing the difference. The only difference is the context. If using the trademark name in any manner constitutes stealing then we've got big problems.

Trust me, knowing you're involved with Intense Cash makes me less likely to promote Intense Cash. [But having dinner and drinks with Lloyd and his boyfriend on a regular basis more than makes up for that misgiving. :) ]

[Squirt]

stop making it so personal, 'cause it's not. It's business for god's sake


Trust me, knowing you're involved with Intense Cash makes me less likely to promote Intense Cash. [But having dinner and drinks with Lloyd and his boyfriend on a regular basis more than makes up for that misgiving. :) ]

You are being inconsistent again.

The numbers you gave in your last post are hypothetical and not consistent with the real world situation I'm discussing in this thread; a real affiliate, real sales, real checks sent to the affiliate, the affiliates real conversion ratios, etc.

I'm not taking it personally, I'm just just concerned that newbies might give solid credence to what you're posting on this particular topic.

[abostonboy]

Rawtop,

I have worked for two programs and know at least three affiliates that do this. Trust me. That spot on the top of Google is golden traffic.

The last program I worked for had an affiliate converting at better than 1:50 on a 5 cent bid. And he had amazing rebills. It was a $30 site. That was a CPA of 2.50 on a membership that he made $15 recurring.

Intense Cash converts even better on that spot for "broke straight boys" as the term.

MANY surfers use Google to type in a domain name when in fact they meant to use the bar at the top. It happens a lot. (I do it.) That traffic is golden.

There is really no risk. If an affiliate can't make at least a 50% ROI, then there is a serious problem with the tour.

I would say that if I could buy the top 100 Alexa site's keywords and send to the sites as an affiliate, I would retire in two to three years. That is no lie. My earlier estimates were way low. And I would really do hardly any work.

I just wish I could share more data, but I really can't...

[rawTOP]

So if no one is bidding on a site's branded terms (indicating the program isn't doing it). Would people feel it's probably safe to bid on the terms?

[abostonboy]

So if no one is bidding on a site's branded terms (indicating the program isn't doing it). Would people feel it's probably safe to bid on the terms?

Not without asking the program first. Some don't see the advantage of bidding on the terms. It does affect the sales of the organic listing. If a program is happy with just the sales from their organic listing then I think you have to respect that. So, I would say it is not safe to do it without asking first. But, more often than not after they see the sales you get from the Adwords and the drop in sales for their organic listing, they will most likely change their mind unless they are bad business men.

[Maryflixxx]

If an affiliate brings sales using your trademark (it does not have to be registered to be a trademark BTW) without your permission that is stealing.

While this is technically true, Google does not arbitrate this way in the US.

I've been working with them (read beating my head against a brick wall) re one particularly onerous infringement of outright theft and I can't make any headway.

There continual response is that they do not arbitrate Trademark disputs in the US.

I also manage PPC campaigns for a few international brands, and only in the UK, Europe and Australia am I able to protect their brands.

[Maryflixxx]

Not without asking the program first. Some don't see the advantage of bidding on the terms. It does affect the sales of the organic listing. If a program is happy with just the sales from their organic listing then I think you have to respect that. So, I would say it is not safe to do it without asking first. But, more often than not after they see the sales you get from the Adwords and the drop in sales for their organic listing, they will most likely change their mind unless they are bad business men.

Am I being called a bad business man? ;)

Every program is going to make their own decision on this issue and it is contentious so I agree that any affiliate who wants to give this a try will have to speak to each program separately.

I can speak from experience and tell you that one bidder in particular that I worked with at Maleflixxx spent $10k a month to keep the Maleflixxx top spot and I know what he made in sales on it and although he was profitable, it was a risk that I wouldn't be willing to take. He wasn't profitable enough to make me sit up and say that I wanted that spot.

Bearing in mind, however, that at the time Maleflixxx had a 7-day cookie for traffic (not theater, just traffic). Now they have switched to a lifetime revshare for traffic as well, so it would probably be a mistake to continue allowing that kind of bidding.

Every situation is slightly unique (of course) and it is up to the companies to decide if they want to allow this or not - if affiliates are doing it without permission, then yes, it is stealing.

[abostonboy]

Am I being called a bad business man? ;)


Not at all. I just feel that the affiliate should ask the program before bidding on the site name. No more. No less.

We are on the same page I think.